Scaling Modules

[phavoc]

Certain things, such as staterooms, armories, battle dress morgues, magazines, etc, conceptually need to scale up or down based upon need. For example, if you wanted a standard stateroom it takes 4 Dtons and can normally fit 2 people in relative comfort. That breaks down to 2 Dtons per person.

Now if you wanted say a 6 person stateroom it should take 12 Dtons, with everything else being the same. In theory scaling up would actually allow you to save some tonnage (one or two freshers for the entire room).

You can also scale an armory up - for every 1 Dton set aside you get sufficient storage space for say 10 troopers small arms and side arms. Ammunition is a little trickier, as different types take up different space, but it can be somewhat generalized. Battle dress morgues are even easier - it takes 1 Dton of space for every set, which gives you the storage space as well as a dressing/maintenance area.

But the books have never really gone in this direction. It's always been a one-size fits all, and just add more if you need them. Has anyone else gone in this direction using their own house rules? Do you think it's something worth looking at for a new version of HG?

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Well, since there are no rules for exactly what is required and exactly how much space each item must take in a stateroom, what's stopping you from purchasing three staterooms and just arrange them into a single room on the deckplan? I've seen several designs that have the actual staterooms at 2 dTons and the rest goes into common room and such, so why not the other way around? Isn't that how suites are usually designed?

So, put 1-2 dTons aside for common room, make a big room out of the rest, add a angle fresher (1/2 dTon) and add some furniture. Done!

 

[phavoc]

Well, since there are no rules for exactly what is required and exactly how much space each item must take in a stateroom, what's stopping you from purchasing three staterooms and just arrange them into a single room on the deckplan? I've seen several designs that have the actual staterooms at 2 dTons and the rest goes into common room and such, so why not the other way around? Isn't that how suites are usually designed?

So, put 1-2 dTons aside for common room, make a big room out of the rest, add a angle fresher (1/2 dTon) and add some furniture. Done!

Nothing. But the idea is that a stateroom is a stateroom is a stateroom isn't a flexible concept. A stateroom on a yacht should be more plush and potentially larger than one on a tramp freighter. An owners suite on a yacht isn't going to be the standard stateroom. First class passage on a liner should have staterooms to reflect the additional cost. That's how this works today and has for quite sometime.

For some starship are just covered wagons to get to the next adventure, for others they want them to be more than a spreadsheet in space. They want them to have individual character and some logic behind their design and construction.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

I don't disagree with you (um, might even turn that around and say I agree if you prefer that ^^). I was just trying to show what can be done within the current rules, without changing anything. The owner's suite could be listed as 2-3 staterooms (plus a dton or two of luxuries), a high passage stateroom 3-4 dton, comfy bed, a stateroom never intended to be used for high passage could be divided into two compartments from the start, and so on...

I like my starships to be an integrated part of the game, where entire sessions can take place, so I completely and your point. the question is if it's needed on a rules layer, or if creative statting can solve the situation?

Turning the issue around, it would be an easy task to have separate entries for luxury suite, high passage stateroom, crew quarters and so on in High Guard. Or, just keep the simplicity of 'stateroom' and apply creativity to the deck plan

I'm fine either way, but it's an interresting topic

 

[allanimal]

Maybe all staterooms are basic when it comes to starship construction, and to make them luxurious means merely adding additional cost or items from the CSC's Home Comforts chapter.

Either way, there should be some guideline:
A stateroom typical of a sector duke costs an additional kCr100 and is 4x the size of a normal stateroom
A stateroom typical of a megacorp vice president is an additional kCr10 and 2x the size of a normal stateroom
A stateroom fit for a High Class passenger on a luxury liner is kCr5 extra and 1x the size of a normal stateroom
etc.
[These are completely random and hypothetical examples]

 

[-Daniel-]

While I understand the desire for an exhaustive list of possibilities, I really prefer the modular method like phavoc outlined. I want a stateroom for a VIP, just buy two and erase the wall and bam, double sized stateroom. I want a crew barrack, buy three staterooms and erase some walls and there it is, a six person room. It seems cleaner and easier to use.

 

[AndrewW]

Turning the issue around, it would be an easy task to have separate entries for luxury suite, high passage stateroom, crew quarters and so on in High Guard.

There are...

 

[phavoc]

There's been some of that already, seeing the bunkrooms, and GK making new sized bunkrooms as well. But the idea here is to make it more flexible. You want 10 man bunkrooms, you need XX tons, and XX freshers. You want a 10ton suite, it's XX. The Barracks option already has a 2Dtons per person rule in it, though it's somewhat restrictive. Modern naval ship quarters still go with multi-person bunk rooms because it's more efficient to crew that way. Individual cabins are reserved for senior NCO's and officers. And only the most senior get their own cabin, everyone else shares.

So going back to the Yacht example, most would have standard staterooms for crew. Guests would probably have larger than crew staterooms (6-8Dtons as opposed to 4Dtons), and then the owner suite could easily be 10Dtons (or more).

Other modules, like say a dining area, would scale up as well. For each 1Dton set aside you can serve 2 people. Laboratories, vaults, etc, all have fixed sizes when they should also follow the same idea - a specific cost per ton. Which allows say a lab ship with 6 extra tons to calculate Space Available x Cost per ton to get their cost. Using old HG rules, you could buy in 4Dton modules, and going around the rules allows you to cut the cost in half to get the extra 2 tons. But why bother when it can be fixed at the formula level to begin with?

 

[AndrewW]

So going back to the Yacht example, most would have standard staterooms for crew. Guests would probably have larger than crew staterooms (6-8Dtons as opposed to 4Dtons), and then the owner suite could easily be 10Dtons (or more).

It is 10 dtons...

Laboratories, vaults, etc, all have fixed sizes when they should also follow the same idea - a specific cost per ton.

Laboratories are 4 dtons per person.

 

[Condottiere]

Individually, you can put in a palace sized bedroom in place of a stateroom, or even an entire wing for a super sized luxury yacht.

The real issue comes for costs and sizes when you start moving around divisions, corps and armies for interstellar distances.

 

[NOLATrav]

What would be supercool is if the new High Guard did something like the Naval Architects Manual from... T4 was it? Each compartment (bridges, staterooms, etc) was fully described and also mapped...

Then we would know how to represent turrets, barrettes and bays on deck plans, as well as different types of accommodations, bridges, etc etc

 

[Anonymous]

Perhaps it needs to be simplified? Volume and cost for different qualities of accommodation per person. Starting with an acceleration couch and going up to the most opulent of suites that take the whole deck of a ship. There are how many options? Low, mid, high, luxury? Interplanetary could be a few hours or several days. Present the info on a table. I don't think tables are popular but I'm a geek, what can I say?

I never got how someone would pay for high passage when there was nothing different about the stateroom than if they'd paid for mid passage. OK, you get your own stateroom but who the heck wants to share a stateroom with a stranger for two weeks at a go? Would you share a hotel room with a stranger?

 

[phavoc]

So going back to the Yacht example, most would have standard staterooms for crew. Guests would probably have larger than crew staterooms (6-8Dtons as opposed to 4Dtons), and then the owner suite could easily be 10Dtons (or more).

It is 10 dtons...

So where in the rules is the option for a 10Dton stateroom? Where in the rules can I find the formula to build a non-bunkroom stateroom that has a displacement larger than 4dtons?

Laboratories, vaults, etc, all have fixed sizes when they should also follow the same idea - a specific cost per ton.

Laboratories are 4 dtons per person.

Yes, it says that 4dtons allows 1 person to perform experiments. But if you want to scale that up or down for whatever your reason (personal, space available, etc), it's not flexible.

And that's an underlying flaw in the rules. SOME things are flexible, but most aren't. Or worse, some things are both inflexible and flexible. The rules for J-drives/power plants and maneuver drives for ships of <2000 tons are inflexible, but go above that and magically they become flexible. From the hints dropped it appears that HG 2.0 may actually be fixing that flaw.

There's no good reason to limit the rule fixes to only a couple of areas when others can be just as easily fixed.

 

[AndrewW]

So where in the rules is the option for a 10Dton stateroom?

The revised High Guard.

Yes, it says that 4dtons allows 1 person to perform experiments. But if you want to scale that up or down for whatever your reason (personal, space available, etc), it's not flexible.

And would it be anymore flexible if say it was 2 dtons with a cost for one person? Then if you wanted it at 4 dtons to a person you would still be modifying it.

There's no good reason to limit the rule fixes to only a couple of areas when others can be just as easily fixed.

Who said only a couple of areas¿

 

[-Daniel-]

So what did I learn from this thread? Simple, it is a waste of our time arguing about a set of rules we have not seen or read yet. Clearly assumptions are being made by those of us who have not seen the HG rules. We are looking at sample ships and drawing conclusions.

So for me, I realized I just do not care about the HG stuff until I get my hands on the Beta for HG, then I will care about ship creation and ship options etc. 8)

 

[Anonymous]

Daniel, I agree with ya, there's some merit to putting ideas of how HG might be but in all honesty getting into detail without knowing what's coming is bordering on futile.

 

[AndrewW]

Comments are always welcome even before the open beta. High Guard is still a work in progress.

 

[Anonymous]

Make it better, dammit :wink:

 

[AndrewW]

Make it better, dammit :wink:

I'm an AI not an engineer.

 

[-Daniel-]

Make it better, dammit :wink:

I'm an AI not an engineer.

Good then you should have no issue with his request. :lol: