Saves as defenses

[Trodax]

With all these threads floating around about peoples houserules, I got inspired to think of some of my own (I'm not GM'ing anything at the moment, which generally means I spend more time on boards talking about rules - I'm funny that way I guess :wink: ). What I had in mind was to take a note from D&D 4th/Star Wars Saga edition and make the saves (Fort, Ref, Will) into static defenses (equaling save bonus + 10), as I think this setup is elegant and has some benefits. So someone with a Fort bonus of +3 would now have a Fort defense of 13, which sets the DC for stuff happening to him (this is exactly like Dodge and Parry already function).

However, what I got caught up on was how to handle massive damage (MD) under these rules. Normally you roll to resist MD, but if Fort defense is now a static score, this has to be changed in some way. I've thought of two ways of doing it:

The mathematical equivalent. Whenever you inflict 20 damage or more on an opponent you get to make an "MD roll" against his Fort defense. This rolls equals d20+(1/2 damage rolled)-2. This turns out exactly as in the RAW, it's just that it's now the attacker who is making the roll. The -2 is of course not very elegant and could be removed, but this makes MD even more deadly than it already is.

The Star Wars Saga thing. This version changes things around a bit, and says that if you ever take damage equal to your Fort defense you are automatically subjected to MD. So if someone with a Fort defense of 13 took 13 or more damage, he would be MD'ed. This of course makes things extremely deadly, so a better way would probably be to say that you have an "MD threshold" equal to Fort defense +5, or +10.

So, my question is, how would you handle MD if Fort was a static defense? Any of the above, or are there other ways I haven't thought about? More generally, is there anything else in Conan one should look out for when doing the save=defense switch?

 

[Majestic7]

In general, I think players should be allowed to roll Saves if there Save or Die -type of effects in the game. Even if the statistical effect is the same than having 10 + Bonuses as a target the attacker aims for, it gives the players a sense of empowerement over the fate of their character. The occasional natural 20 or 1 for a PC or a bad guy can be quite memorable events as well. This lack of lucky ones or 20's is one thing I dislike in 4th Edition, although it is fixed somewhat by the lack of Save or Die effects.

Thus if you want to move towards Saga-style MD, I'd suggest taking the condition track from that game instead of using Conan MD. Or make a two-tier system - minions and mooks have MD-limit, they die if that is surpassed. Heroes, monsters and main villains have a condition threshold and they receive variable penalties to actions when they get damage over the limit in one strike.

 

[Trodax]

In general, I think players should be allowed to roll Saves if there Save or Die -type of effects in the game.

I agree, that's why I have a problem with MD combined with static defenses (having the attacker roll against Fort defense just doesn't feel as exciting as rolling save-or-die for your own character, does it?).

Thus if you want to move towards Saga-style MD, I'd suggest taking the condition track from that game instead of using Conan MD. Or make a two-tier system - minions and mooks have MD-limit, they die if that is surpassed. Heroes, monsters and main villains have a condition threshold and they receive variable penalties to actions when they get damage over the limit in one strike.

Nah, I'm not a fan of the condition track in Saga, or other systems that inflict increasing penalties as you get hurt. They lead to a death-spiral for characters who get hit, which is probably absolutey realistic, but unfun for me (and I see hit points as a form of plot-protection anyways, rather than actual wounds).

Having different rules for heroes and minions is very cool, though, that could very well work in some way.

 

[Majestic7]

Having different rules for heroes and minions is very cool, though, that could very well work in some way.

Well, without condition rules, only monsters and major characters roll Fort vs MD. Minions and mooks have a "Death Threshold" that is equal to their Con score, Con + Level or something like that?

 

[Trodax]

Well, without condition rules, only monsters and major characters roll Fort vs MD. Minions and mooks have a "Death Threshold" that is equal to their Con score, Con + Level or something like that?

Absolutely, but how would you solve the "roll Fort"-part if Fort was a static defense?

 

[Majestic7]

Absolutely, but how would you solve the "roll Fort"-part if Fort was a static defense?

MD rules would work normally - pass 20 points, Fort save DC 20+. Roll Forst save as usual. Mooks would just drop without a save if damage surpasses their "death threshold", however you want to calculate it.