Sandcasters - how often and effect...

[rust]

And the Problem is?

That this would lead us back into the micrometeorite argument
about the consequences of even a minor space battle with sand
or pebbles for lightly armoured ships moving through that area
later on, and so on ...

 

[Infojunky]

And the Problem is?

That this would lead us back into the micrometeorite argument
about the consequences of even a minor space battle with sand
or pebbles for lightly armoured ships moving through that area
later on, and so on ...

One of the Basic Tenants of Traveller starships is they have Strong Hulls, thus the effect of colliding with remnants of a sand cloud are negligible... As for residual munitions in an area outside orbits the chance of encountering them are very slight as they all will drift along their residual vectors out of said area fairly rapidly.... But the point is made, areas such as withing the gravity well of a planet said material might very well collect in uncomfortable orbits, but all in all said debris ring would be readily visible to sensors....

 

[Wil Mireu]

One of the Basic Tenants of Traveller starships is they have Strong Hulls, thus the effect of colliding with remnants of a sand cloud are negligible...

That's just an assumption though. And what about windows? Solar panels? Wings? Antennae? People outside doing EVA? Do they have magic armour too?

As for residual munitions in an area outside orbits the chance of encountering them are very slight as they all will drift along their residual vectors out of said area fairly rapidly.... But the point is made, areas such as withing the gravity well of a planet said material might very well collect in uncomfortable orbits, but all in all said debris ring would be readily visible to sensors....

That's... not how it works. Battles are bad enough with all the bits of debris flying around without more damaging debris being spat out by sandcasters. That's why I likened them to mines - they get left there in the battle and they stay there afterwards for anyone else to run into. Yes, sandcaster clouds would disperse and thin radially over time, but you still don't want to be flying through the area at high speed on the way to 100D for a while afterwards.

 

[Infojunky]

Right off the Bat, Wil I want you to imagine how big Space is, it's bigger than that.

One of the Basic Tenants of Traveller starships is they have Strong Hulls, thus the effect of colliding with remnants of a sand cloud are negligible...

That's just an assumption though. And what about windows? Solar panels? Wings? Antennae? People outside doing EVA? Do they have magic armour too?

Well that depends, a starship's antennae and other external fixtures would be built along the same robust lines as the hull. As for EVA's precautions will have to be taken even without the negligible added risk of being in a system where a battle took place.

As for residual munitions in an area outside orbits the chance of encountering them are very slight as they all will drift along their residual vectors out of said area fairly rapidly.... But the point is made, areas such as within the gravity well of a planet said material might very well collect in uncomfortable orbits, but all in all said debris ring would be readily visible to sensors....

That's... not how it works. Battles are bad enough with all the bits of debris flying around without more damaging debris being spat out by sandcasters. That's why I likened them to mines - they get left there in the battle and they stay there afterwards for anyone else to run into. Yes, sandcaster clouds would disperse and thin radially over time, but you still don't want to be flying through the area at high speed on the way to 100D for a while afterwards.

Ok, everything launched, blown apart, dropped, shot Etc. etc.... Will have it's own innate vector, a expanding sphere surrounding the entire volume where combat took place. Thus the miniscule probability of another ship encountering said debris is so low that even insurance actuaries would probably ignore it (Counts as an Act of God). Plus factor in that any potentially ship damaging debris would be fully visible with ship's sensors. It really comes back to the 1st line of this reply, Space is REALLY Big.

 

[Wil Mireu]

Right off the Bat, Wil I want you to imagine how big Space is, it's bigger than that.

I'm well aware of how big space is, thank you.

Well that depends, a starship's antennae and other external fixtures would be built along the same robust lines as the hull.

You're waving your arms so much... are you trying to communicate in semaphore?
Sorry, but the nature of those components means that they won't be "robust".

As for EVA's precautions will have to be taken even without the negligible added risk of being in a system where a battle took place.

And what precautions would those be?

Ok, everything launched, blown apart, dropped, shot Etc. etc.... Will have it's own innate vector, a expanding sphere surrounding the entire volume where combat took place. Thus the miniscule probability of another ship encountering said debris is so low that even insurance actuaries would probably ignore it (Counts as an Act of God). Plus factor in that any potentially ship damaging debris would be fully visible with ship's sensors. It really comes back to the 1st line of this reply, Space is REALLY Big.

Lots of expanding spheres, probably - plus all the larger bits of debris flying around. And while space is indeed big, orbital space is actually kinda crowded, and most space battles probably won't be in the middle of nowhere - they'll be near a planet. All that crap is going to screw up orbital space for years to come.

Heck, when the Chinese incredibly stupidly blew up one of their own satellites, that seriously clogged up Earth's orbital space. The ISS has had to be moved out of the way several times because of the threat of debris from that (and the collision between two other satellites).

No, Sandcasters are a stupid idea IMO.

 

[dragoner]

Right off the Bat, Wil I want you to imagine how big Space is, it's bigger than that.

Exactly, plus even if it would damage another ship, they might do it. We fire mines from artillery pieces today; plenty of munitions have a high probability of causing fratricide.

 

[Infojunky]

As for EVA's precautions will have to be taken even without the negligible added risk of being in a system where a battle took place.

And what precautions would those be?

Right off the bat, like current Astronauts some sore of Micrometeoroid Garment and a through local scan with ship's sensors, then in areas with high risk one might position a small craft or similar barrier between the direction of highest risk and the EVA area etc. etc...

Heck, when the Chinese incredibly stupidly blew up one of their own satellites, that seriously clogged up Earth's orbital space. The ISS has had to be moved out of the way several times because of the threat of debris from that (and the collision between two other satellites).

Ah, ok I see your point of view, unfortunately it seems we are talking at cross purposes, with completely different scales and assumptions in mind. The easiest illustration is you are thinking of TL7/8 spaceships whereas I am thinking a robust TL11/13 Starships. The same goes for sand you thinking beach sand, where I am thinking an engineered micro particulate aerosol. There probably a bunch of differing Traveller assumptions here as well, it happens.

 

[tolcreator]

Actually, on the subject of sandcasters... what does having 2 or more sandcasters do for you, than one does not? Hardly -nD6 where n is the number of sandcasters... that would make a free trader with 2 tripple turrets of sandcasters invulnerable to laser fire.

Limit sand to working only against each "attack", so you need 2 casters to defend against 2 attacks? Do lasers work that way against missiles? I don't think so... and it seems you can even use lasers to defend against missiles (as a reaction) in a turn in which you used them offensively.

What does the sandcaster operator do, without reactions to spend in defense? Rather confused, all told... starting up a campaign shortly, so I'll need to have something ironed out by then!

 

[phavoc]

Traveller sand is far more low-tech than most realize. According to the literature it's supposed to be a TL5 product, produced on just about any planet and readily available everywhere there's a beach or dirt or rocks I suppose. I know somebody is going to ask where I read that, and off the top of my head I don't recall.

I always thought it was more gee-whiz spiffy than that.

 

[F33D]

Traveller sand is far more low-tech than most realize. According to the literature it's supposed to be a TL5 product, produced on just about any planet and readily available everywhere there's a beach or dirt or rocks I suppose. I know somebody is going to ask where I read that, and off the top of my head I don't recall.

I always thought it was more gee-whiz spiffy than that.

You are correct phavoc, it is somewhere in the MRB. That and those wonderful missiles manufactured at TL7. Both items are FAR beyond the TL's listed. Both eliminated from MTU also.

 

[AndrewW]

Traveller sand is far more low-tech than most realize. According to the literature it's supposed to be a TL5 product, produced on just about any planet and readily available everywhere there's a beach or dirt or rocks I suppose. I know somebody is going to ask where I read that, and off the top of my head I don't recall.

I always thought it was more gee-whiz spiffy than that.

You are correct phavoc, it is somewhere in the MRB. That and those wonderful missiles manufactured at TL7. Both items are FAR beyond the TL's listed. Both eliminated from MTU also.

Sandcasters being available at TL5 was actually High Guard (under Changes to Core Rule Book).

 

[F33D]

Traveller sand is far more low-tech than most realize. According to the literature it's supposed to be a TL5 product, produced on just about any planet and readily available everywhere there's a beach or dirt or rocks I suppose. I know somebody is going to ask where I read that, and off the top of my head I don't recall.

I always thought it was more gee-whiz spiffy than that.

You are correct phavoc, it is somewhere in the MRB. That and those wonderful missiles manufactured at TL7. Both items are FAR beyond the TL's listed. Both eliminated from MTU also.

Sandcasters being available at TL5 was actually High Guard (under Changes to Core Rule Book).

Correct. But the impossible, TL 7 missiles is in the MRB I believe.

 

[Infojunky]

Traveller sand is far more low-tech than most realize. According to the literature it's supposed to be a TL5 product, produced on just about any planet and readily available everywhere there's a beach or dirt or rocks I suppose.

A surprising number of "High Tech" materials are produced with low tech equipment, my engineered aerosol like Sand pretty much only requires a ball mill and the right composition of ceramic.

 

[Infojunky]

Actually, on the subject of sandcasters... what does having 2 or more sandcasters do for you, than one does not? Hardly -nD6 where n is the number of sandcasters... that would make a free trader with 2 triple turrets of sandcasters invulnerable to laser fire.

It really depends on what specific rules you use, re-reading the CRB I am conflicted to my exact answer. One way of reading that is to follow the Point defense rule right above with the number of defense reactions being limited to the number of available sandcasters.

I don't think so... and it seems you can even use lasers to defend against missiles (as a reaction) in a turn in which you used them offensively.

Remember under Beam Weapons it states a turret my fire once a turn, thus either used in offense, or reserved for point defence.