S+P Playtest rules.

[Triggy]

ok, um, now greg worries me, does triggy want it Automatic? if a Brivoki can automatically do 6D6 shield regen, i mean, oh my, holy feck. . .

as said, I think it IS a good action on battle level down.
as for no downside, I KNOW it's a game, but if it doesn't drain off the power from anywhere, why isn't it just the standard recharge? ? ?

I have been mainly arguing for it being automatic on the basis of the Bimith, Lakara and Juyaca, I fully acknowledge that the Brivoki would be a bit OTT (although that could be redressed by saying it can't use the SA as it is a hybrid Brakiri design and the techniques required can't be used on the Brivoki).

Either way, I fully understand more playtesting is needed to find the balance of what CQ to apply or to make it automatic As Greg said, don't forget that this SA, in combination with the mines, is meant to make the Abbai better, more in line with the other League races for ability to win a game.

 

[H]

in all honesty, I have never seen the Abbai as all that weak!
I don't like a special action that would not be allowed on one ship, just seems fiddly. Hopefully you will work something out anyway

 

[Greg Smith]

as for no downside, I KNOW it's a game, but if it doesn't drain off the power from anywhere, why isn't it just the standard recharge? ? ?

The Abbai strike me as the kind of people who would have enough auxilliary power to power the ship four times over, with quadruple redundancies on all of their equipment, just in case. And one day, a venerable engineer from Earth was given a tour of a Lakara and he said, 'Ya know, if yer channel some of that auxilliary power into the shields, you'll be able to bring them back up a mite bit faster. But yer canna change the laws o' physics."

 

[CZuschlag]

OK. Lots to talk about here, and I haven't tried any of them over the board yet. However, I'm pretty ceertain of some things...

1). Abbai Mines. I think this is going to be gross. For some races, this is the end the show as you make the impregnable mine bunker. Patrol fleets, drakh raiders/mothership fleets (some at high priority), some Narn brick ships, and anything short-ranged is going to eat this is the chops, whereas the bombardment fleets --- which are the main Abbai problem anyways --- get off Scott Free. Yes, I know abbai need a huge boost, but more short ranged 9and espcially template) weaponry isn't going to do it. I recommend removing this action (especially at Automatic!?) with a SA that reduces damage from long-range firepower somehow. If you must have mines, remove the template effect. Or, if mines aren't detonated by fighters, can't fighters shoot and kill the mines (for example, by dogfighting the mine counter?).

2). Abbai Shield Regen. Good, and could even be better. Recommend upgrading to quadruple or more; it really needs to be on par with Close Blast Doors, and this doesn't quite make it -- even though this at least allows you to fire every direction, whereas you used to not be able to do it. Perhaps you could even allow the Abbai to perform any other automatic SA at the same time if they pass the CQ check, otherwise they just get the regen as specified (now THAT would be cool ... Shields + All Hands on Deck? Shields + CBD? Shields + APtoE? Shields + Jump Points ... all VERY cool.)

3). Dilgar Alpha Strike. Well, now the Dilgar weenie fleet backed up by a Mass Driver gets awful. The 1-6's and 2-6's will get a workout (as it is still the same systems....Engines!) and the first 1-4 makes the next 2-something a 2-6, and here comes the Wahant's 20 dice of Mass Driver. Wow! That is, if you didn't blow the ship already from a 6-6.

I don't like this for several reasons.
> It stacks with CAF.
> It stacks with Scouts
> It leverages the Ochliavita Ki too powerfully
> The game has more criticism from overly powerful critical hits as is
> Dilgar crits are overly powerful already
> This is a big-ship wrecker, and big ships get wrecked enough already
> More firepower is the last thing the Dilgar need, or should have.
> Mass Drivers as real weapons are a major fundamental rebalance

Dilgar are a much more nuanced fleet than just close-and-kill nowadays; the Thorun and the Torpedobomber give them so many more options than they used to have.

4). Drazi Attack Run.

Like it in concept, but hate the execution. First of all, it brings base size into play, where there are no standard base sizes. Do you mean post-over-post itself?

The rest are balance issues. In particular, I hate the ramming thing with an absolute passion. Uncle Stone Cold says: "Oh. H**l. No." Failed attempts should result in no attack that turn, as if the target is under Stealth.

In the example of the Drazi, I'd like to make it so the really big ships don't leverage this too much, making big ships more of an "I go, you go" firing moment. To implement this, CQ test should be 1 harder, but agile ships should get a +1 to this test.

This thing should be tested extensively as part of integrated Vree/Drazi fleets. I think that Drazi-only fleets need this kind of help, and I'm fine with it as a powerful advantage. Integrated League fleets with Drazi fill me with much dread, especially the Solarhawks. This ability mgiht be best only available to Drazi-only fleets.

5). EA Bonehead Manouver

What. Are. You. Thinking???

Jump Point Bombs weren't enough? 3 EA ships start in Hyperspace behind enemy fleet. Emerge from Jump Points, and instantly template the entire enemy fleet by themselves. Fleet-go-boom.

Instaban. I'm not even bothering playtesting this. This is worse than allowing ramming at any time. Early EA, already a powerhouse, is the last fleet that needs a Planet-Killer weapon. Seriously, what race needs a Planet-Killer when two Hermes on remote control can do this?

6). Shadow Scream

Love it. Psicorps really hosed the Shadows over before; this gives them an equally vile counterweapon. Actually it might not be enough, but it can't hurt!

Is it bad for Vree, too (they do have Telepathy, after all, and the Shadow advatange of mobility doesn't work against a fleet with all turrets.....)?

7). Shadow Antifighter

Love it --- should actually be even more powerful. Change from Minibeam to SAP is a possibility, but I need to test this one over the board. More AD might be better, too. I'd like a Ancient Shadow Ship to say in one turn "OK, that's enough of YOU!" and nuke 6-8 stands of fighters then and there, out of pique, if nothing else. After all, you're passing up a turn of 6+ dice of Quad Damage Beam -- that's a huge price to pay!

Edit: Cleaned up for clarity, two additional thoughts included.

Disclosure: I am a Dilgar (primary), Drakh (secondary), and Early EA (tertiary) player.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Things look good.

Although...

I'm along with the puzzel of the need for a command White Star? Hopefully this *will* be a gunship variant? Be nice to see those fielded more often.

I'm not sure how I feel about the Shadow Scream. Although the bonus against Psi-Corp is nice.

The Drazi attack run... I'll wait to see what how it comes out of play testing. I don't like the fact that they get to fire out of turn. And the description doesn't fit with the rule. They 'hold their fire' till the last possible second... yet they get to fire before everyone else? Possibly, make it so this SA can only be performed by a ship that didn't fire the previous turn? Ship holds fire, next round, ship moves and fires. The ship can still fire during the attack round of the round it attempted the SA (unless holding fire again).

Bonehead Manouver... This was supposed to require a JUMP GATE. thats why the explosion was so freaking devistating. All the Quantium 40 from the gate is what causes the explosion.

Now, if changed to require a gate, I see no reason it couldn't be a 20" diameter explosion, like it should, since the white star was the only ship capable of escaping its blast (with APtE

 

[tschuma]

in all honesty, I have never seen the Abbai as all that weak!
I don't like a special action that would not be allowed on one ship, just seems fiddly. Hopefully you will work something out anyway

Hiffano

Thank you for the observation! I have been writing about the Abbai for awhile that they are better then what they look like, in the right hands. When you play the Abbai, you can not paly them like any other fleet. I was tlaking about the new actions and we are arguing over who gets them int he next campaign. He starts out with APE on the first turn, the second tuen he in within range of your fleet with hiwe long range guns, and then on turn 3 with targets in all arcs. then he moves his front line ships out of the way and the second line is hitting you while the first line is regeneratib the shields. Now with this SA, they can be broken. Look at the refits, 1 they gain a +2/+1 to their shields, then the can gain an additional +1 to the regen. With the SA that gives them a x3. What hte heck!

I know this is campaign driven, but holy heck x3

The mine is a great idea for defending a Planetary Assualt. Just lay a ring of mines around the planet and now let he assualt go through!

Dibs on the Abbai in Cincinnati!

 

[Da Boss]

Another thought - Psychic Scream kills telepaths then - but does not effect Black Omega fighters - bit odd?

agree with the Bonehead problems - removing it seems best...........

or at least make it so have to use a jump gate.

 

[Tolwyn]

I've read through tne new rules and I'm far from pleased. I fully agree with CZuschlag on all of his arguements as there are several severe issues especially the Bonehead Manouver and the Drazi attack run.

The Bonehhead rule simply is a game killer if Jump Point bombs weren't enough already.

The single ship that used once the Bonehead manouver was the Whitestar with Sheridan on board. Now an entire fleet should have this capability. No thanks. In addition it makes the other 2 EA Lists redundant.

I see the Drazi rule used as another reason for a swarm fleet with dozens of Sunhawks using the action.

The Abbai rules look ok, but I think it would perhaps be better to couple the reloading rate to the PL of the ship so that larger ships have a higher reload rate then smaller ones.

 

[Foxmeister]

I've read through tne new rules and I'm far from pleased. I fully agree with CZuschlag on all of his arguements as there are several severe issues especially the Bonehead Manouver and the Drazi attack run.

Final judgement should of course await the finished product as these are playtest rules after all, but my big fear here is that rather than P&P bringing balance to ACTA it's going to send it further out of wack in favour of "coolness".

Regards,

Dave

 

[Tolwyn]

Final judgement should of course await the finished product as these are playtest rules after all, but my big fear here is that rather than P&P bringing balance to ACTA it's going to send it further out of wack in favour of "coolness".

Regards,

Dave

Very right. By now it looks the way that "cool" stuff is better then balanced one. I want no second Armageddon disaster :evil:

 

[Triggy]

I agree with a lot of what CZuschlag is saying.

1) Abbai Mines are an interesting one, I'm not so sure that they're that bad but we'll see.

2) Abbai Shield Regeneration - maybe with the extra SA but I'd be more in favour of tweaking the CQ roll to perform the SA rather than giving extra SAs.

3) Dilgar Alpha Strike - for the most part this actually decreases the firepower a Pentacon puts out as it reduces the number of targets that they shoot at. However, it is pretty powerful, particularly when firing at a big, undamaged ship. This is the big downside that I can see as you point out, it reduces the effectiveness of large ships and that's not something we want to see.

4) Drazi Attack Run - this isn't a rule I like at all. I'd much prefer something that gives a (small) bonus to AD (e.g. +1/2 AD) at a small risk of ramming (e.g. on a CQ check of a natural 1 on the die). The firing out of sequence isn't the worst thing in the world but is very powerful and combined with the possibility of using ships as suicide run ships (deliberately) then the way this SA is structured isn't very fun or fair. However, that said, the concept of the SA is a fun one!

5) EA Bonehead Manoeuvre - Total agreement here! I've already pointed out the Hermes issue amongst other things. Make it require a jump gate and you bring balance back but frankly it's not something that any fleet used as a real tactic.

6) Shadow Scream - I like this although it should work against Psychic Crew on Fighters too.

7) Shadow Antifighter - I love this one (I suggested it after all) although I think it should be at full range too.

 

[Da Boss]

I agree with a lot of what CZuschlag is saying.

1) Abbai Mines are an interesting one, I'm not so sure that they're that bad but we'll see.

2) Abbai Shield Regeneration - maybe with the extra SA but I'd be more in favour of tweaking the CQ roll to perform the SA rather than giving extra SAs.

3) Dilgar Alpha Strike - for the most part this actually decreases the firepower a Pentacon puts out as it reduces the number of targets that they shoot at. However, it is pretty powerful, particularly when firing at a big, undamaged ship. This is the big downside that I can see as you point out, it reduces the effectiveness of large ships and that's not something we want to see.

4) Drazi Attack Run - this isn't a rule I like at all. I'd much prefer something that gives a (small) bonus to AD (e.g. +1/2 AD) at a small risk of ramming (e.g. on a CQ check of a natural 1 on the die). The firing out of sequence isn't the worst thing in the world but is very powerful and combined with the possibility of using ships as suicide run ships (deliberately) then the way this SA is structured isn't very fun or fair. However, that said, the concept of the SA is a fun one!

5) EA Bonehead Manoeuvre - Total agreement here! I've already pointed out the Hermes issue amongst other things. Make it require a jump gate and you bring balance back but frankly it's not something that any fleet used as a real tactic.

6) Shadow Scream - I like this although it should work against Psychic Crew on Fighters too.

7) Shadow Antifighter - I love this one (I suggested it after all) although I think it should be at full range too.

1. agreed

2. with all the tweeking would it not be easier to tweek the normal shield regen rates? Although I am not sure they should be as quick as Shadow shields?

3. I'm not sure many players would use Concentrate of Close Blast doors more?

4. Don't like anything about it at present

5. just broken

6. I agree (in fact I mentioned earlier :wink: )

7. Er why Accurate rather than Antifighter - Accurate just seems wrong as it means it can hit White Stars without them being able to dodge ? Have antifighter dice at 1/2 or even a 1/4 of the beam range, maybe double the AD.

 

[silashand]

1. agreed

2. with all the tweeking would it not be easier to tweek the normal shield regen rates? Although I am not sure they should be as quick as Shadow shields?

3. I'm not sure many players would use Concentrate of Close Blast doors more?

4. Don't like anything about it at present

5. just broken

6. I agree (in fact I mentioned earlier :wink: )

7. Er why Accurate rather than Antifighter - Accurate just seems wrong as it means it can hit White Stars without them being able to dodge ? Have antifighter dice at 1/2 or even a 1/4 of the beam range, maybe double the AD.

1. Reading the discussion I'm not sure how this one can be used so abusively as people suggest, though I can see how it might get bad if used by a swarm fleet. Maybe limit this ability to certain ships only rather than making it a SO? Either that or since fighters don't trigger it allow them to destroy the mines without them blowing up?

2. I like the idea of increasing shield recharge rates for the Abbai, but I wonder if this is too much for certain ships. I think just upping the general recharge rate as a matter of course is a better idea.

3. I'm not sure about this one. It wouldn't be pleasant obviously and I have to agree with whoever it was who said the game is already overly dependent on critical hits. Giving the Dilgar the ability to guarantee a 6 result on the same table occasionally would be horrifying. It definitely wouldn't encourage big ships at all due to their extreme vulnerability. Little ships could care less really since if they take that much damage from a Dilgar barrage, they are likely destroyed anyway. All this said, it is a CQ9 and would be relatively hard to achieve, not to mention preventing the Dilgar player from attempting any other SO.

4. It would seem to encourage swarm fleets which I thought was something players generally hated? Also, I'd rather a fix for boresight that applied to *all* users of such weapons rather than one fleet. That and the idea that drazi ships could circumvent the firing order just seems wrong to me.

5. If it is meant to be used with a Jump Gate, then perhaps fine. As it is written it's far too abusive. However, even if used with a Jump Gate it should still come with a penalty for use due to it being classed as a war crime by all civilized raced. Maybe give the opponent the equivalent of 2 FAPs worth of VPs or something. Remember, this was a last ditch option and should not be undertaken lightly. As it stands there is no reason not to do it.

6. I like the psychic scream ability a lot. It evens the playing field for Shadows vs Psi Corps which I think was disproportionate.

7. I like the mini beam idea better than AF. If you watch the show, the Shadow ships at the Battle of Corianna 6 seem to hit White Stars with relative impunity, something that doesn't happen now. If something has to change, maybe just restrict the range a bit more so that it's like a longer ranged AF, say 6-8" or so?

Cheers, Gary

 

[B5freak]

I played a test game against the Vree with the new Abbai rules yesterday. We used 6 Raid points, with the restriction that 2 of those points must go to buying a Battle PL ship (so really 4 Raid and 1 Battle).

I took a Lakara, Bimith, 4 Marta, 3 Tiraca, and 1 Shyarie. The Vree took 4 of the Bombard saucers (3AD, Super AP, TD, 25"), 2 Torpedo Saucers, 2 Xorr, and 1 Xaak. We used a standard CQ of 4 on all ships.

Shields - Maybe it was just my poor rolling, but this was just not reliable. I know some folks are worried about this SA becoming overpowering on the bigger Abbai ships, but I think changing this to automatic needs to be seriously considered. The simple restriction of only being able to perform 1 SA per turn should be sufficient to keep this balanced. If I'm tripling my shield recharge, I'm not using All Power to Engines, Close Blast Doors, or deploying mines.

Mines - This is actually really fun. The little, fast Abbai ships make great mine layers since they can quickly get to areas of the battlefield you want to deny to the enemy. The mines themselves aren't all that brutal, especially with the e-mine trait (no crits), but, at least in our game, they did have a substantial psychological impact. The main issues we ran into were:

- What is the exact definition of "if an enemy ship moves anywhere within 3" of this marker"? I would assume that if a ship moves to within 3" of the marker, the mine will explode as soon as the ship crosses the 3" boundary, but what if the ship starts within 3"? The scenario we ran into was that my Tiraca moved and deployed a mine within 3" of an enemy ship, prior to the enemy ship moving. Does that mean that, unless the ship performs All Stop (or is SM), the mine explodes the instant the enemy ship's movement begins? What about All Stop and Pivot? Does just turning count as "moving"?

- Will a mine explode in response to a dead, drifting enemy ship? I decrewed an enemy ship and it drifted into a mine's radius during the end phase. We played that the mine detonated, but is that the intent?

- If a mine detonates in the End Phase, do Abbai shields regenerate before or after the detonation? The rules are unclear on the sequence.

- At the moment there are no rules for destroying/clearing mines. Though I think it would be very tricky to keep the mines useful as a tactic, it would seem that some rule is needed to allow fighters and/or e-mines to act as mine sweepers.

- Size of the mine "marker". So, how big is the marker? Is distance measured from the edge of the marker or its center. Our assumption was center (and I used small dice anyway), but without clarification there's nothing to stop someone from putting a 2" radius marker on the table and then measuring 3" from the edge, thus giving the mine an effective 5" radius. Beardy, yes, but apparently legal.

 

[Triggy]

Shields - Maybe it was just my poor rolling, but this was just not reliable. I know some folks are worried about this SA becoming overpowering on the bigger Abbai ships, but I think changing this to automatic needs to be seriously considered. The simple restriction of only being able to perform 1 SA per turn should be sufficient to keep this balanced. If I'm tripling my shield recharge, I'm not using All Power to Engines, Close Blast Doors, or deploying mines.

This is the exact reason that I suggested it being auto-pass... not because the triple recharge isn't good enough but because you can't use other SAs/deploy mines at the same time. It still needs more playtesting to check where the point of balance is, especially with using larger Abbai ships - giving the larger ships better recharge bonuses is not something I'm against given that they are the weakest elements in the Abbai fleet!

As for the mines - it's my understanding that any movement into/out of/through the area of effect sets them off. This includes ships that haven't had the chance to move before the mine was deployed and ships that are adrift. The wording would certainly need tightening up though.

 

[silashand]

Hmmm... good info on the mines and the shields thing. I think perhaps you are right that by increasing shield power you're not also closing blast doors, etc. Basically you seem to be swapping one for the other which I don't think is a bad thing.

Cheers, Gary

 

[CZuschlag]

Da Boss:

Great catch on Psychic Crew on fighters. I missed that one straight out. Thanks, Dude.

B5freak:

I hadn't thought of laying mines directly within 3" of another ship. If you think about the sequence of things, it would normally go off immediately if the other ship is moving, meaning that both ships get caught. This is feeling very kludgey, when the boards have had several other Abbai solutions (including Ripple's Deflection-of-Long-Range-Shots suggestion.)

Thank you for the early playtest. We need to get a whole lot of such games under our belt in the next month so we can post our arguments based on them here. We are the Ounce of Prevention -- if we can get our reports in.

Triggy:

The Dilgar Alpha Strike magnifies the firepower of a pentacon significantly. Only one ship (the one "leading" the pentacon .... whatever leading means!) has to succeed in the special actions. All the others can then roll for CAF to their heart's content. The most abusive formation for this one that I can think of is 1 Ochliavita Ki followed by 4 Jashakar.

All:

Now I get why Accurate and Minibeam and not SAP or some such. Doh! My bad. Ignore my comment on changing the Shadow Antifighter capability. The only open question is the number of dice allowed.

The concept of the Drazi attack run is something I do like. The overly-boresight dependent Drazi need something to help them out of this mess. It can't be a general rule or boresight either, because Early EA, with a fair amount of boresight itself, can hardly be described as weak. Most of the Narn skirmish ships follow this rule as well (the G'Quan weakness is the exception, not the rule (Ka'Toc, Ka'Tan, Thentus, G'Vrahn, Bin'Tak, Ka'Bin'Tak)). If we don't like a 50/50 chance to fire out of sequence or not at all, what DO we want?

We also seem to agree that the Bonehead Manoeuver is Right Out. ("Five!" "No, three, Sire"). What should Early EA get for a tactical trick? It should be relatively limited, EA is a power race already.

Have we also decided we want to rethink the Dilgar Alpha Strike? Maybe it's me, but I'm sensing some wandering thoughts that all end in .... "I kinda don't like it." I'm going to suggest something unusual

>>>>>>>>>>>

Desparation (CQ 7 Check): Losing was not an option for the Dilgar. The fate of their race, trapped on Omelos with an unstable star, was dependent on the success of their war.

During a game, if the Dilgar player losing by both more than 10 VP and a 2:1 ratio, a ship may attempt Desparation. On success, temporarily reduce the ship's Hull Value by 1. In exchange, all Bolters become SAP, and all Pulsars become AP.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

There are very few situations that this would be a better call than CBD or CAF, so it's not like this would improve the Dilgar any. They don't need it!

I'm totally at a loss for Early EA ideas. Help!

Disclosure: I play Dilgar (primary), Drakh (secondary), and Early EA (tertiary.)

 

[l33tpenguin]

The concept of the Drazi attack run is something I do like. The overly-boresight dependent Drazi need something to help them out of this mess. It can't be a general rule or boresight either, because Early EA, with a fair amount of boresight itself, can hardly be described as weak. Most of the Narn skirmish ships follow this rule as well (the G'Quan weakness is the exception, not the rule (Ka'Toc, Ka'Tan, Thentus, G'Vrahn, Bin'Tak, Ka'Bin'Tak)). If we don't like a 50/50 chance to fire out of sequence or not at all, what DO we want?

If the SA required that the Drazi ship didn't fire the previous turn, I think the SA is fine. Like I mentioned earlier, the SA contridicts itself by saying they 'hold their fire till the last possible second' and then goes on to let them fire before anyone else. Forcing a ship to hold fire before executing this SA means the player sacrifices an attack for a chance to beam the crap out of someone with all their weapons.

 

[mollari_uk]

Shadows having accurate min-beam - er no that means it slices whitestars - which just seems wrong - turn dice into L/R Antifighter dice better...............

It's single damage isn't it? You'd hit a WS with an average of 3 damage (down to 1 with AA). Ooh scary. I don't think there's a problem here. I think AF would just complicate matters. And who knows maybe there are changes to AF too. Keeping the rule as is is simple and effective I think.

I'm going back on my comment on the Shadow scream. I don't think it should have any more power. To do more would up the power of the Shadows against everyone in every situation which they don't need.

 

[B5freak]

CZuschlag wrote:

I hadn't thought of laying mines directly within 3" of another ship.

:twisted: Naughty fish people....

If you think about the sequence of things, it would normally go off immediately if the other ship is moving, meaning that both ships get caught.

Depends on whether you're looking at it from a "game mechanics" or "real world" perspective. In game mechanics terms, the ships don't move until the Movement phase, after delcaring SA. That's how ships can us All Stop to halt their movement. If I drop a mine within 3" of a ship that hasn't yet moved, and that ship performs All Stop, then it technically hasn't moved this turn (and thus the mine doesn't blow up). Obviously, if we change to a real world perspective, the ship is still "moving" even though the model is currently stationary, and All Stop doesn't kick in until the SA is declared. In that case, the mine would detonate as soon as it hit the table. "Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

I'm not sure Early EA really needs anything. IMHO, they're more powerful than either of the later EA fleets. If anything, I'd modify the Omega to make it a bit nastier, especially in it's broadsides. Give me a fleet list that makes a fleet of nothing but Omegas and Hyperions a force to be reckoned with, and I'll show you a fleet that really reflects the show.