S+P Playtest rules.

[Greg Smith]

A different version of sustained fire:

Boresight beams represent some of the most powerful weapons constructed by the younger races. However their fixed position makes them difficult to maintian continuous fire on the same target. If a captain can keep his ship manueverig to do so, the destructive power of the beams is magnified exponentially.

CQ9
The ship must fire its boresight beam at the same target that it fired at last turn. If it passes the Crew Quality check the ship has maintianed continuous fire on the same target and may reroll any of the initial beam dice that miss.

 

[H]

Hiffano,

Some questions, just so I can make sure I understand.

1). What size table are you using? usually a 6*4, sometimes a different oval one
2). What terrain rules are you using? rarely, none of our fleets particularly use terrain
3). Who are his local opponents (galactic powers, not players)? Narn, Brakiri, EA, Pak, Minbari. There is a shadow player, but that battle has never occured. oh and the drakh once.
4). Does he usually have more ships on the board than his opponents/swarminess? no not really, he likes the bigger ships he may have a few more due to his model limitations but nothing you could ever describve as a swarm.
5). What scenarios do you play? Call to arms, anhialation, space superiority

 

[Foxmeister]

The idea of Sustaining a beam is that, in general, you're going to get far less firepower output. Slow-loading for a 50% firepower output on the primary turn is, in general, a bad trade -- you lose 25% of your firepower over 2 turns. Not being guaranteed its success and not being able to do something else (Come About, CBD, All Hands on Deck) is worse. You'd have to pick your spots. That's, I think, what we're about here.

The one thing I do like about the Sustained Beam idea is that for boresighted ships you quite often know that even when you've lined up the bore, you're unlikely to be able to maintain it or get another on a subsequent turn - especially for slow, lumbering, ships like the G'Quan.

Sustained fire would at least allow you to get some extra bang for your buck. However, I think it would need to applied sparingly and only to a few larger ships (e.g. G'Quan, Omega etc) as at lower levels it would likely become excessively powerful. The fluff can say that only ships with larger beam generators have sufficient power to maintain a beam for long enough to get a sustained effect.

As to combining it with Burgers Beam System, the biggest issue with I have with that is that using this system G'Quan would not be able to pin a young shadow ship, even if it used sustained fire, and that should be possible.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Triggy]

hiffano - the most common "middle ground" opinion of the Abbai seems to be that the Tiraca and Milani are good ships, as is the Brivoki. The Bimith sucks, and the Lakara and Juyaca are below par. Most of the time where the Abbai do well it's where they take lots of Tiracas and Milanis (both decent ships anyway) and if the game is of a high enough PL then they get the swarm factor too. The way I see the new Shields SA, is that the small ships will still get killed in one or two rounds of firing anyway so won't really get the chance to use the SA. The bigger ships will get to survive longer if they use the SA, with only the Brivoki really needing to be careful about (although with so many different weapons on the Brivoki and the way it plays, I'm not so sure that it will be an issue anyway - the most useful SA here is All Hands to Deck when close in and CBD at range).

Anything that boosts larger ships like this for the Abbai is a good thing although there is still a tradeoff about not being able to APtE or CBD and of course actually making the CQ check. From my point of view, the real point of discussion is how hard to make the CQ check? CQ 8, 7, 6 or auto?

 

[H]

the Juyaca under par? hahahahhahahahahhahahhahahha

the lakara may be under par.
the Bimith, pft, with 2/45 turns and no lumbering, it's fine

 

[tschuma]

I admit I am baffled, people keep saying the Abbai need beefing up, sure the bimith needed some work, but our Abbai player has never lost a game... ever, and he's not particularly clever or a tactical genius, and he just keeps laughing when I tell him about the changes.

so why I ask Why does everyne seem to think they are so bad?!

Hiffano

His name isn't Gardner is it? Our group has the same situation. When I told him about the changes, he just laughed. He even switched in the middle of our campaign to Minbari so the rest of us could have a chance to win against him. The refits that the Abbai get are way over the top when it comes to shields and now they get regen at 3X. Come on give the rest of us a break. A Patrol or even a Skirmish level ship could have the shields of the Shadows and not get pinned?

Add pinning to the Abbai shields and it would make a difference.

tschuma

 

[Greg Smith]

Around here the Juyaca is considered rock hard. We've seen a Juyaca chase a (admittedly damaged) Sharlin off the board. Of course it was too slow to ever actually get in range.

 

[katadder]

only major problem i saw with abbai was the bimith losing a turn and getting lumbering. as thats being reversed they not too bad now.

 

[H]

no it's Paul.

I'm not opposed in principle to a shield regen, but the only downside being no other actions, then on the Juyaca and Brivoki it's a no brainer, other ships less so.

As has been suggested, why not just up shields in general instead of a specual action. I am hugely concerned to be honest that i perceive the playtesters to think the abbai are so weak, I don't want a huge over reaction like we have had on some things previously. Our abbai player has already stopped playing his ISA because of the cheese factor, it would be a kick in the proverbials if the Abbai ended up OTT as well. as he can't exactly bob out an buy a new fleet at present.

I'm not attacking the playtesters I am raising a genuine concerne about a possible over reaction to a perceived issue. I think any overcharging of shields of Aitomatic has to do something else rather than just work!

 

[CZuschlag]

Greg --

Not bad. Also possible. Just some Devil's Advocate thoughts.

- You have to do a bit of record-keeping to remember what fired at what the previous turn. At CQ9, the risk-reward feels pretty decent, too. Crusade, with several boresight 2/45 ships (Marathon in particular) will be able to leverage this more powerfully than 3rd Age. Checking .... we're OK with that, right?

- Early EA would be able to use this with the Beam Olympus -- and it's nimble enough to get repeated shots. It can't CAF or CBD as it is, so it would be a significant upgrade to that ship. How do we feel about that?

- I don't know how Burger's Beam System would be compatible with miss/reroll, but that's not an official concern. The effect is similar to 50% increases, but avoids the bugaboos of Shadow Pinning (somewhat).

- Do we want the Drazi to have this? Abbai (Tiraca Combat Laser is B ... do I have that right)? I'm betting no ... but I'm not sure.

- With the boresight arc, the SA gets a little initiative-sinky, instead of relieving the issue.

What I do like is that Sustained, is, well, sustained. It fits the text better than my model.

It does have long-range planning implications, which are typically rare. I like that. Do you pick a target for a kill, or do split fire to try and get extra damage through sustained shots?

It's a special order as a threat, also --- I could sustain on you, so what does the target of last turn that survives do? Hard call.

Probably need to clarify the sustain with the same weapon and the same target --- a Hyperion shouldn't sustain from the front boresight on the first turn and the rear boresight on the second. Some rules lawyer'll show up, you just know it.

 

[Scipio]

And forcing a carrier to use a special action when it's behind an asteroid field and safe from combat does NOT count as a downside.

A downside would be that the carrier wouldn't be able to recover or launch fighters when using a SA.

Bring it down now!
SA
CQ10
A carrier can target one enemy ship as a target. All friendly fighters within 2" and also all fighters attacking the target get -1 dodge and hull and the target counts as having -1 hull.

Come on more EA fighter ideas!

 

[CZuschlag]

If all the fighters were already launched, it isn't much of one, either.

If you couldn't recover any fighters using your Fleet Carrier trait in exchange ... that might be better.

Wait --- no way! 1+ Dodge for a Aurora? Cue Vince Mcmahon's music....

"You've got ... NO CHANCE! NO CHANCE IN H%$#!"

 

[Burger]

EA fighters are already good, why do they need to get better?

The game is meant to be a fleet game about big ships. Fighters are just an extra.

 

[Greg Smith]

Greg --

Not bad. Also possible. Just some Devil's Advocate thoughts.

Thanks. I had figured their would be issues - like why it's just boresight weapons? Whether actually hitting on the first turn would be required.

- You have to do a bit of record-keeping to remember what fired at what the previous turn. At CQ9, the risk-reward feels pretty decent, too.

It would be a bit of extra record keeping, you are right.

Crusade, with several boresight 2/45 ships (Marathon in particular) will be able to leverage this more powerfully than 3rd Age. Checking .... we're OK with that, right?

Hmm, Crusade could be a fly in the ointment. I have to admit I was thinking Narn, lumbering 1/45 ships, or smaller ships with 1 or 2 dice.

- Early EA would be able to use this with the Beam Olympus -- and it's nimble enough to get repeated shots. It can't CAF or CBD as it is, so it would be a significant upgrade to that ship. How do we feel about that?

It would, but then with speed 6, in never seem to get the blasted things in range for more than a shot or two before the game ends. But maybe that's me.

- I don't know how Burger's Beam System would be compatible with miss/reroll, but that's not an official concern. The effect is similar to 50% increases, but avoids the bugaboos of Shadow Pinning (somewhat).

It would probably have more effect on BBS than the standard beam system, but would probably only increase overall hit averages slightly. My maths is too rusty to figure it out.

If you can fire on the same Shadow ship two turns running, then good on you. Only thing is, it makes it more likelty that you can continue to pin a Shadow ship and your beams don't crap out on following turns.

- Do we want the Drazi to have this?

Good question. It might be less controversial than the Attack run. I probably wouldn't want them to have both.

Abbai (Tiraca Combat Laser is B ... do I have that right)? I'm betting no ... but I'm not sure.

Nope. F arc.

- With the boresight arc, the SA gets a little initiative-sinky, instead of relieving the issue.

It does. But we also have the SA that allows firing B as F ar at half AD. Options galore!

What I do like is that Sustained, is, well, sustained. It fits the text better than my model.

It also kind of fits the shots of the show we see the G'Quans firing at Shadow ships.

It does have long-range planning implications, which are typically rare. I like that. Do you pick a target for a kill, or do split fire to try and get extra damage through sustained shots?

It's a special order as a threat, also --- I could sustain on you, so what does the target of last turn that survives do? Hard call.

It does makes potential targets want to get away from boresight ships.

Probably need to clarify the sustain with the same weapon and the same target --- a Hyperion shouldn't sustain from the front boresight on the first turn and the rear boresight on the second. Some rules lawyer'll show up, you just know it.

Oh, yeah.

 

[Scipio]

If all the fighters were already launched, it isn't much of one, either.

If you couldn't recover any fighters using your Fleet Carrier trait in exchange ... that might be better.

No because if its an SA you couldn't recover right.

Wait --- no way! 1+ Dodge for a Aurora? Cue Vince Mcmahon's music....

Actually if it were not clear its one worse hull and one worse dodge for the fighter, the Aurora would dodge on 3+ and the Thunderbold on 4+.

 

[Burger]

we also have the SA that allows firing B as F ar at half AD.

Bah, I always preferred "follow that target"
In fact that alone would be a great replacement for the Drazi attack run SA.

 

[Davesaint]

the Juyaca under par? hahahahhahahahahhahahhahahha

the lakara may be under par.
the Bimith, pft, with 2/45 turns and no lumbering, it's fine

It's under par if it doesn't make it to the battle Hiffano. It is only speed 7 afterall. Oooh you could all power to engings and get up to speed 7.5! You lumber and your longest ranged weapon is 15. If it gets there its nasty, however the problem with the Abbai that we have found is that they usually don't make it to the close range fight. Not to mention, with a -2 initiative getting up to a best case of -1, you are going to be losing initiative a lot as the Abbai, so your opponent will likely allways going to be dictating the range the battle is going to be fought at.

The reason why people think the Abbai are weak is that if you know how to play against them, they just die horribly. They are not any more survivable with the current rules(not the playtest stuff) than they used to be.


Dave

 

[tschuma]

Dave

With the Abbai you have to completely re-think how you use them in a battle. It took our Abbai play about 3 games to really come to grips with them and then it was all over.

You have to take a fair amount of the Patrol Level ships. the Scout is GREAT. Comm Disruptors out to 15" means -2 for CQchecks Plus as discussed on another thread, they kill fighters! Plus all Abbai have Anti Fighter.

Set up in lines so that as the first wave is hitting the enemy the second wave is setting up for the next turn, then as the second wave hits, the first wave has pulled out and is regen the shields.

On the first turn you rely on your shields for the long range shots and APTE. then on the next you are within Knife fighting range and with Twin Linked all over the place you have multiple hits with the chance of Criticals racking up. With a precise Beam, then it really goes up.

Now the Comms Disrupters hit with a -2 to your repair attempt. Fun!

If handled properly, not a fun fleet to fight agaisnt, and I have tried 4 times with Narn.

tschuma

 

[No. 1 Bear]

You have to take a fair amount of the Patrol Level ships.
tschuma

Well all that says is swarms win. Not really surprising.

 

[tschuma]

It's not really the swarm, the Marta is a Skirmish level ship with Hull 6 and 10/2 shields. It has lots of Twin linked dice and can really take some punishment. It really is a good balance of ships when on the table. If the Patrol level ships were 2 for 1's then I would say it was a swarm fleet, but not really.

Tschuma