runequest newbie here

[nebulous]

hey everybody. i used to have a lot of the old Runequest stuff years back, but sold it Actually, i didn't use it a whole lot and transitioned back to 2nd edition D&D.

Anyways, i'm looking forward to this. I'm tired of the 3.x spell system and REALLY want something new, innovative, that puts the fun and mystery back into magic.

How did magic work in the old system, and do you think they're changing it much?

It seems like there isn't a master HP rating, so i also wonder how that's going to pan out. Mutants and Masterminds and True 20 use a Damage Save system, but i don't know if RQ even has a save mechanic.

Sorry if this is rehashed old questions.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

How did magic work in the old system, and do you think they're changing it much?

That's difficult to answer. By RQ3 there were four (five, if you count Dragonewt magic) magic systems, each of which worked completely differently. This is certainly far removed from D&D where magic is essentially the same for all classes, and only the spells are different.

Battle Magic/Spirit Magic/the new Rune Magic was the lower-powered "utility" stuff, which most everyone powered themselves up on before combat.

Rune Magic/Divine Magic was specific to each cult, so if you were a member of an Earth cult you only got earth-based spells.

Sorcery was a mess. Forget about that.

Ritual magic was entirely designed around the Ceremony/Enchant/Summon skills. Ceremony made the chance of success higher, Enchant was for creating magic items, and Summon was for - well - summoning.

 

[SteveMND]

Sorcery was a mess. Forget about that.

Oh, pish posh! Sorcery was great and allowed you to do some amazing things. As long as the player had some advanced math skills, and your character didn't mind actually having most of his abilities tied up in external items and such, you could do all sorts of fascinating magic

That said, of all the magic systems, that was the one every table seemed to have extensive house rules to cover -- even some of the original writers! -- so while it may have been a cool idea in theory, the practical applications left much to be desired with most players.

I'm really hoping MRQ ends up with some system analogous to that, but, well, useable. It always seemed to me that sorcery was a better fit for God Learner magic anyway...

 

[Enpeze]

steve MND - I'm really hoping MRQ ends up with some system analogous to that, but, well, useable. It always seemed to me that sorcery was a better fit for God Learner magic anyway...

amen. I also always thought that the sorcery had some tremendous potential. But somehow the practical side of this system was very odd.

Also I think that the shaman system was super with all its spirit types and fetch etc. In which system you can play a mighty over-the-top POW50 shaman with 9 HP and a dodge of 15%? Just great.

 

[atgxtg]

There were even more magic systems for RQ. For instance the Lunars used a sort of hybrid between Sprit Magic and Sorcery. This allowed them to alter and boost sprit magic spells in a way similar to how a sorceror could ajust sorcery spells.

And then thetre are the farily easily portable magic system used in some of the RQ/BRP spin-off games.

New RQ seems to be following the same trend, with multiple magic system. It magikes it much easier to customize the game to a setting that way. Much better than shoehorning a setting to fit a magic system.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

Sorcery was a mess. Forget about that.

Oh, pish posh! Sorcery was great and allowed you to do some amazing things. As long as the player had some advanced math skills, and your character didn't mind actually having most of his abilities tied up in external items and such, you could do all sorts of fascinating magic

That said, of all the magic systems, that was the one every table seemed to have extensive house rules to cover -- even some of the original writers! -- so while it may have been a cool idea in theory, the practical applications left much to be desired with most players.

I'm really hoping MRQ ends up with some system analogous to that, but, well, useable. It always seemed to me that sorcery was a better fit for God Learner magic anyway...

That's pretty much what I meant, really. The whole Sorcery skills thing was a fantastic idea, but the practical implementation was a total mess. Sorcerors were either ludicrously underpowered or ludicrously overpowered, and once you started binding spirits, creating familiars and locking up your spells in Matrices, you could do some astonishingly good stuff. Hit someone with an Intensity 13 Duration 20 Phantom Smell ("fresh skunk oil" for 20+ years)? Oh yes!

But to get there was so badly thought out. Most of my Sorcerors were NPCs who had, like, 30 to 40 years of previous experience, and who cheated (a bit ) on the familiar rules, by creating them from already-bound Magic Spirits.

And I'm fully with you on the God Learner magic - that's always how I saw it.

 

[Urox]

I think it's important not to confuse magic in RQ with magic in Glorantha.

At it's core, RQ rules allow for a magical world, where everyone knows some magic (usally refered to as Common magic or Battle magic).

This is really an abstract of special abilites based on the POW statistic/mechanic -- POW is one's innate ability to do magic.

Now, the aquisition and restrictions of how to use POW based magic can (and should) vary per setting. In Prax, everyone learns common magic from the spirits of your ancestors, but in some strange place like Lankmar, maybe only ancient wizards teach it to only 1 disciple at a time...

 

[atgxtg]

I think it's important not to confuse magic in RQ with magic in Glorantha.

At it's core, RQ rules allow for a magical world, where everyone knows some magic (usally refered to as Common magic or Battle magic).

This is really an abstract of special abilites based on the POW statistic/mechanic -- POW is one's innate ability to do magic.

Now, the aquisition and restrictions of how to use POW based magic can (and should) vary per setting. In Prax, everyone learns common magic from the spirits of your ancestors, but in some strange place like Lankmar, maybe only ancient wizards teach it to only 1 disciple at a time...

Yeah setting is everything. When I was running a more historically based Fantasy Earth, I didn't give out the "basic magic" that all the culures give in RQ3 (generally a point or two of spirit magic or sorcery). Magic became something that one acuired only by making a deliberate, active effort to learn.

 

[atgxtg]

That's pretty much what I meant, really. The whole Sorcery skills thing was a fantastic idea, but the practical implementation was a total mess. Sorcerors were either ludicrously underpowered or ludicrously overpowered, and once you started binding spirits, creating familiars and locking up your spells in Matrices, you could do some astonishingly good stuff. Hit someone with an Intensity 13 Duration 20 Phantom Smell ("fresh skunk oil" for 20+ years)? Oh yes!

But to get there was so badly thought out. Most of my Sorcerors were NPCs who had, like, 30 to 40 years of previous experience, and who cheated (a bit ) on the familiar rules, by creating them from already-bound Magic Spirits.

And I'm fully with you on the God Learner magic - that's always how I saw it.

The Sandy Peterson variant Sorcery rules fixed a lot of the problems with Sorcery, especially thr FreeINT problems. Most of the high end problems of sorcery were shared by Spirit Magic. A powerful Shaman could be as bad as a Magus. Still Sorcery was nice in the way that the wizard really got to cusomize and play with the magic to get the desired results. One of the few games where a wizard could actually make a living casting spells.

 

[RosenMcStern]

But to get there was so badly thought out. Most of my Sorcerors were NPCs who had, like, 30 to 40 years of previous experience, and who cheated (a bit Smile ) on the familiar rules, by creating them from already-bound Magic Spirits.

Ludicrous. My best sorcerer made a familiar out of an already-bound Bad Man, not a weak magic spirit. That is for bigoted Rokari lithurgists.

Creating the familiar was an adventure in itself, obviously. I think this was the spirit behind the whole magic stuff in RQ3: it gave only the limitations that had to be applied to magic usage. Players had no need for suggestions

And yes, I think the real solution to Sorcery problem was Sandy's system, too.

 

[nebulous]

Thanks for all the input guys. Sounds to me that there are many magick systems, which is JUST what i want. Not just a tweaked spell list: i want the gritty mechanics of a spirit shaman to be totally different than a ritual magician, for example. I want group A unable to do what group B can do. And vice-versa. They each have their strengths.

hopefully the new MRQ can rebalance some of the complaints expressed above.

Question: were any of the magic systems constructed with built-in scaling? Meaning, you could modify (meta-magic) details on the fly? True Sorcery does this, but it's still not as intuitive as i would like.

 

[Decurio]

Question: were any of the magic systems constructed with built-in scaling? Meaning, you could modify (meta-magic) details on the fly?

Hey Nebulous!

The sorcery system in RQ III had some pretty amazing dynamic scaling built in from the ground up. Sorcerous characters began with (low) skills allowing them to directly affect intensity, range, and duration of each and every spell they cast. (there was also a skill in multispell allowing you to cast multiple spells more-or-less simultaneously).

As others have said in the thread, RQIII sorcery had some great potential, but I don't think they had time to refine the system. I always loved it.

The different magic systems in RQ were always great because they FELT different.

 

[nebulous]

The sorcery system in RQ III had some pretty amazing dynamic scaling built in from the ground up. Sorcerous characters began with (low) skills allowing them to directly affect intensity, range, and duration of each and every spell they cast. (there was also a skill in multispell allowing you to cast multiple spells more-or-less simultaneously).

As others have said in the thread, RQIII sorcery had some great potential, but I don't think they had time to refine the system. I always loved it.

The different magic systems in RQ were always great because they FELT different.

As Mr. Burns would say.........."Exxxxxxcellent."

 

[atgxtg]

Thanks for all the input guys. Sounds to me that there are many magick systems, which is JUST what i want. Not just a tweaked spell list: i want the gritty mechanics of a spirit shaman to be totally different than a ritual magician, for example. I want group A unable to do what group B can do. And vice-versa. They each have their strengths.

hopefully the new MRQ can rebalance some of the complaints expressed above.

Well each of the 10 or so diffeent magic system in RQ or it variants was differenet. No at were compatable in the same game world (RQ Sorcery is better than CoC in many ways, earily Strombringer Sorcery would overpower the other RPGS)., but each was differenet. In general the mehancis were similar, since RQ uses the core mechanics for everything. But each system was unique enough to play and feel different.


[qoute/]Question: were any of the magic systems constructed with built-in scaling? Meaning, you could modify (meta-magic) details on the fly? True Sorcery does this, but it's still not as intuitive as i would like.[/quote]

Yeah, RQ3 Sorcery is probably the best example of this, just like Decurio posted. In RQ3 Sorcery, you had skills that were used to modify spells. THese included Intensity (enhances a spells effect/damage), Duration (makes a spell last longer), Range (makes a spell strike out farther), and Multispell (allows spells to be combined into a mega spell). THere was also a Ceremony skill that allowed a character to put more time into casting for an impoved chance of success.

THe Lunar MAgic system for RQ3, was basically Spirit Magic, but overlaid with skills that allowed a Lunar Magicain to do the same things to Spririt Magic that A sorceror could fdo with Sorcery.

 

[Decurio]

THe Lunar MAgic system for RQ3, was basically Spirit Magic, but overlaid with skills that allowed a Lunar Magicain to do the same things to Spririt Magic that A sorceror could fdo with Sorcery.

*laughs* Oh man, I forgot about Lunar magic; that was some fun stuff to play with; I remember a Lunar hoplite character running around throwing Intensity-boosted Disruption spells. People's heads were exploding left and right.

 

[Lord Twig]

Sorcery was great for on-the-fly scaling, but for really interesting magic effects Ritual magic was the best.

Magic items that we created:

Gnome Grenade - Basically a bound gnome (10m earth elemental) that would have a command spell cast on it if it ever touched the ground. The gnome would be released and would attack the nearest non-Earth worshiper.

Disruption Spear - This spear would trigger 3 simultaneous disruptions if it hit a living being.

Speedart Bow - Simple enough, every time the bow was drawn back it would cast a Speedart (+15% to hit, +3 damage) on the arrow.

Extinguishing Weapon - Had an Extinguish 4 that went off if it touched fire (owned by an Elf). Interesting effects when a dragon breathes fire on you and does extra damage to salamanders (fire elementals).

Teleport Ball - By far the most expensive item created. It was a small iron ball that had a magic spirit (Blip) and a huge Teleport matrix with a lot of stored magic points (around 60 I believe). Blip had long duration Telepathys cast on it by two other magic spirits (Whisper and Mutter) that were bound into Homing Circles. Anyone in our group could use the Telepathy spirits to contact Blip and have the ball show up to transport them where they wanted to go. Or you could just take the ball with you on an adventure and have a quick way to return home.

 

[atgxtg]

I've love to see the power crystals for some of those things. The Speedart Bow would be nice with a freaking huge power crystal.

 

[Lord Twig]

These used the RQIII Magic Point Matrix and Power Spirits to keep them charged up. Add conditions for Target, Trigger and Source and you are ready to go!

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

(Smiles)

Some very nice memories coming back there. I'd totally forgotten how cool RQ3 item creation was.

Both Battle/Spirit and Rune/Divine had variable intensity spells also, so some (comparatively limited) on-the-fly tweaking was possible with them as well.

 

[Decurio]

Sorcery was great for on-the-fly scaling, but for really interesting magic effects Ritual magic was the best.

Magic items that we created:

Gnome Grenade - Basically a bound gnome (10m earth elemental) that would have a command spell cast on it if it ever touched the ground. The gnome would be released and would attack the nearest non-Earth worshiper.

Disruption Spear - This spear would trigger 3 simultaneous disruptions if it hit a living being.

Speedart Bow - Simple enough, every time the bow was drawn back it would cast a Speedart (+15% to hit, +3 damage) on the arrow.

Extinguishing Weapon - Had an Extinguish 4 that went off if it touched fire (owned by an Elf). Interesting effects when a dragon breathes fire on you and does extra damage to salamanders (fire elementals).

Teleport Ball - By far the most expensive item created. It was a small iron ball that had a magic spirit (Blip) and a huge Teleport matrix with a lot of stored magic points (around 60 I believe). Blip had long duration Telepathys cast on it by two other magic spirits (Whisper and Mutter) that were bound into Homing Circles. Anyone in our group could use the Telepathy spirits to contact Blip and have the ball show up to transport them where they wanted to go. Or you could just take the ball with you on an adventure and have a quick way to return home.

this post just made my day.