Rules check on Klingon shields

[JRhoades]

Right. Thanks ScoutDad!

 

[Kirksfolly]

We also play by throwing all the dice for a weapon type together (ie all phasers, all photons, all disruptors, etc) but the firing player decides the order of fire. There's only one round-up for phasers. As it seems others play it differently this may require FAQ clarification before tournaments.

 

[chazaroo]

So, from reading this thread it sounds like there is no official answer on this yet. . . which sucks.

According to the Klingon "Reinforced Shields" special rule on page 81, whenever a Klingon ship suffers "an attack" through its Fore arc, it halves all damage, etc.

The question then is what constitutes "an attack". I think there are are at least five different ways to interpret this:

"'an attack" is
1. Each d6 rolled (e.g. a phaser 1 shot constitutes 2 attacks);
2. Each weapon fired (e.g. a phaser 1 shot constitutes 1 attack rolling 2D6);
3. All shots from a particular weapon type (e.g. all phaser 1 shots are combined and constitute 1 attack);
4. All shots from the attacking ship are combined, regardless of weapon type (e.g. photons, drones, all phasers constitute a barrage and constitute "an attack"); or
5. All shots from all enemy ships on that same arc in the same turn constitute "an attack".

Personally, I prefer option 4 since it's the easiest and quickest way to resolve the issue, and avoids the munchkin tricks offered by options 1-3 which will make the game more complex, less fun, and subject to abuse. But whatever the answer, we need something official if we're going to run tournaments.

 

[Greg Smith]

In B5 ACTA it was the attack dice rolled by one weapon system.

 

[chazaroo]

Understood. But in SFB/FC all direct fire weapons hits were determined before damage was resolved. Also, in SFB/FC if a shot split shields, the defender determined which shield was hit, but had to let all of the shots from the attacker hit the chosen shield. To me, option 4 is the clearest, easiest, and most akin to the practices in SFB/FC.

 

[Sgt_G]

But this isn't ACTA:B5. :wink:

I would prefer option #3.

I would like to see it as all phasers, no matter what type, to be grouped into one salvo, and all photons / disruptors / plasma bolts / etc be grouped into one salvo for each type of heavy weapon.

Example, Feds BCF: Group all Ph-1 and Ph3 into one salvo, group all Photons into one salvo, and group the bolted Pl-F into one salvo, and group all drones into one salvo. They can fire these in whichever order they prefer.

 

[chazaroo]

I would like to see it as all phasers, no matter what type, to be grouped into one salvo, and all photons / disruptors / plasma bolts / etc be grouped into one salvo for each type of heavy weapon.

Actually, this is a 6th option - well done! I bet there are even more.
See. . . we really need an official ruling on this!

 

[Sgt_G]

I forgot to say that your option 4 doesn't fit with Matthew's previous statement / ruling that you can select fire in whatever order you wish, resolving damage for each before firing the next.

Say, for example, you fired phasers and get a crit that puts the shields off-line, and then the overloaded photon that rolled a "5" to hit hits the ship instead of shields.

Just as an aside, please note that if you fire, say, four weapons on a single salvo and hit with three, and one of those hits is a "6", the other two hit shields BEFORE rolling this one hits for internal damage. See page 7, first line under "Damaging Enemy Ships".

 

[Greg Smith]

But this isn't ACTA:B5. :wink:

I would prefer option #3.

I know it isn't and to be honest option 3 does seem the best. B5 has a simpler format for weapons and arcs. Option 3 is the easiest and speediest option.

Options 1 and 2 require you to shoot/roll individual weapons - which is slower.
Options 4 and 5 require you to track/remember/write and add up a total.

 

[Sgt_G]

With so many phasers being separate line-items, I don't think you're gaining a whole lot of time saved, which is why I suggest (at the very least) grouping all Ph-1 togther, all Ph-3 togther, all disruptors together, etc. I did suggest grouping Ph-1 and Ph-3 together, but I do see where that "could" be a problem keeping them straight. Not too many ships have separate line-items for heavy weapons (C7 & C8 disruptors, for example), but for those that do why not combine them?

 

[McKinstry]

We've been grouping each weapon type together and rolling, for example; Ship A has a total of 6 AD of Phaser 1's that can shoot at Ship X(in multiple mounts/stats lines), we'd roll 6 X D6 halving the results. Assuming Ship A now has 4 Photons, we'd roll 4AD, calculate the results including the multi-hit and if the shields are stll there, halve the result.

That's about as simple and fast as we can envision.

 

[chazaroo]

I like your approach. I just want to see if we can get an official answer from Mongoose before I try start trying to teach people and run tournaments.

 

[Madstoat]

It has already been ruled by Matt in another thread that weapon systems are separate line entries, assigned targets individually, damaged individually. Taking that into consideration as well as all previous ACTA rules sets attacks should be  rolled one at a time per weapon system. From where I am sitting any other resolution is illogical based on past presidents and current rulings. 

 

[Kirksfolly]

I've read that Matt confirmed weapon systems were individual lines and you may assign targets individually with them but can you please point out where he stated you roll damage individually for each weapon system as I (and apparently many others) have clearly missed that?

 

[Captain Jonah]

It has already been ruled by Matt in another thread that weapon systems are separate line entries, assigned targets individually, damaged individually. Taking that into consideration as well as all previous ACTA rules sets attacks should be  rolled one at a time per weapon system. From where I am sitting any other resolution is illogical based on past presidents and current rulings. 

The weapon system is a single line thing was for different questions. This is (well people keep telling me anyway) a fast simple game. Rolling every single weapon seperately will take longer than the rest of the game put together.

Just group the weapon types together, pick which goes first, roll them, then go to the next weapon group.

If I dump 2 Plasma Ss, 2 plasma Fs and 6 phaser ones on some poor soul I just roll 12 dice for the plasmas and 6 dice for the Phasers. No messing around, and wasting a lot of time rolling first 4 dice for the plasma S, then again for the next plasma etc etc.

In terms of previous ACTA rule sets, this isn't NA, this isn't B5. This is SFB. :lol:

Quick and simple.

 

[Madstoat]

The weapon system is a single line thing was for different questions. This is (well people keep telling me anyway) a fast simple game. Rolling every single weapon seperately will take longer than the rest of the game put together.

No it really won't, hyperbole like that is silly.

The weapon system ruling plays into this discussion very neatly as it is obvious the way in which ships attack is divided by their weapon systems. 

Just group the weapon types together, pick which goes first, roll them, then go to the next weapon group.

If I dump 2 Plasma Ss, 2 plasma Fs and 6 phaser ones on some poor soul I just roll 12 dice for the plasmas and 6 dice for the Phasers. No messing around, and wasting a lot of time rolling first 4 dice for the plasma S, then again for the next plasma etc etc.

Yes, but more than the Klingon shield rule gets messed up by playing the game incorrectly as you describe. Critical hits are worked out as each weapon system is fired so you could disable shields with one phaser hit and then hit the hull with the next. 

In terms of previous ACTA rule sets, this isn't NA, this isn't B5. This is SFB.  :lol: 

Quick and simple.

Yes, but what you are really failing to grasp here is that it is ACTA, not SFB. Yes, while it has to provide the same overall result and feel of SFB it is very much still ACTA. 

Loads of people seem to have latched on to this idea that ACTA is quick and easy and simple and fluffy and covered in happy vibes. Yes it's true ACTA is a simpler system than SFB/FC but you can't just use that as a caveat to sweep nuanced areas of the rules under the carpet.

Take a moment to sit back and savour the nuances. Just flinging your ships round the table clobbering each other strips some rather fun and interesting tactics out of the game.

 

[Madstoat]

I've read that Matt confirmed weapon systems were individual lines and you may assign targets individually with them but can you please point out where he stated you roll damage individually for each weapon system as I (and apparently many others) have clearly missed that?

I didn't say he had ruled on this specific issue. He has ruled to say that targets are assigned to each 'weapon system' and that special actions disable 'weapon systems' and that critical hits can disable 'weapon systems' so it only follows on that you attack with weapon systems.

By all means lump your dice together to speed up play but you are loosing out by believing this cry of "OMG it's too complex if I have to roll a few more dice".

 

[Nretnimoc]

Not to reset the issue but all this has confused this rule for me and how it is executed. My friend and I more or less forgot this rule during our first run through and with a second game on the horizon I want to make sure it is clear for me.


Firing on a Klingon Ship against the forward arc:

My Forward Phasers w/ 2 AD fire at extreme Range.

a. Does this mean that I only roll 1 dice?
b. Does it mean I roll 2AD & half rounding up my hits?
c. Half my hits that penetrate their shields and apply them to the shields instead?


Im not quite clear on it, obviously. Does the rule effectively nullify "half" a ships starting AD pool for a weapon system? Or does it "half" the number of hits the Klingon's hull takes?

"half" = half rounding up.

 

[Greg Smith]

It halves the number of hits.

Examples,
2AD phaser-1 at 17" range. Roll 5,5. 2 Hits - 1 off shields.
2AD phaser-1 at 4" range (within the killzone). Roll, 5,5. 2 succesful rolls becomes 4 hits. 2 off shields.

2AD phaser-1 at 17" range. Roll 5,6. 1 hit on shields (0.5 rounding up). 1 roll on the attack table to see what damage is applied to the ship itself.

2AD phaser-1 at 4" range. Roll 5,6. 2hits - 1 off shields. 2 rolls on attack table.

I hope that helps.

 

[Nretnimoc]

It halves the number of hits.

Examples,
2AD phaser-1 at 17" range. Roll 5,5. 2 Hits - 1 off shields.
2AD phaser-1 at 4" range (within the killzone). Roll, 5,5. 2 succesful rolls becomes 4 hits. 2 off shields.

2AD phaser-1 at 17" range. Roll 5,6. 1 hit on shields (0.5 rounding up). 1 roll on the attack table to see what damage is applied to the ship itself.

2AD phaser-1 at 4" range. Roll 5,6. 2hits - 1 off shields. 2 rolls on attack table.

I hope that helps.

More accurately from this you are saying it halves the number of Hits against the shields. It does do anything against those that actually Penetrate with a natural 6.

Example:

2AD of Phaser-1 at 4" range. Roll 6, 6 = 2 hits creating 4 hull hits.

2 AD of Phaser-1 at 4" range. Roll 4, 5 = 2 hits, half = 1 hit which creates 2 Shield hits from multi-hit.

correct?