RQII MRQ magic

[Lorgryt]

I just read this in a different thread:

A little off topic, but along related lines, I was thinking about trying to use a hybrid RQ3/MRQ magic system. What I have in mind:

You would integrate runes more or less as written, but they'd be a bit rarer than the current rules imply, and a bit more special.
Instead a few points of Spirit Magic here or there would be commonplace.
Having the appropriate rune would grant you a bonus to cast the spell, or maybe a reduced MP cost. You'd also get the normal special abilities from rune integration. Maybe to integrate with a rune you'd first have to beat the rune in spirit combat... (instead of the persistence test)
I haven't figured out the details yet. Anyone have any suggestions?

This whole thing has me a little bugged. One of the best and most unique things about RQ was that Spirit Magic was VERY common. If you needed to kill a rat, use Disruption. If you need to chop wood, use Bladesharp and it is a snap. The spells were minor for the most part, but made sense in the context of Glorantha.

The new Rune rules in MRQ are GREAT... if they were used for Devine Magic instead of Spirit Magic. I know they call it Rune Magic, but it isn’t really, it uses the same spells from the Spirit Magic list of RQII and III.

Now, to have even a basic set of spells you have to have half a dozen Runes attuned, and need to find just the right rock or stick or piece of apple pie to hold while you cast the spell (should be a rule of 1D3 actions needed for every 6 runes after the 3rd). Loose it and you can NEVER use the rune for spell casting until you find THAT EXACT Rune. A Rune just like it is not enough.

So, now, every one that used to be an integral part of the mythic fabric of the world is a drooling minion. It looses something major in my opinion. The average bar maid will not have befuddle as a means of stopping some barbarian from pinching her... lots of kids will die because their parents can not use Heal on them after the inevitable farm accidents. It seems like the Gods have abandoned Man to his fate... somewhat before the next age.

Now, none of this is intended as a whine fest. Unlike a lot of the posts here I am not going to chant “Cannon! Cannon!” and expect Mongoose to fix it. I will just fix it in my game and post (under the SRD) a fix for it on my page... but I did want the fine folks at Mongoose to know how I felt, and wanted to hear some feedback on this from the rest of us (well, I would love to hear from Mongoose folks too! LOL).

Thanks for your time guys. (Those with them start casting Armor, Bladesharp, and any other spells you think you might need... I will trust to Mother Kygor my self.)

 

[sexy_davey]

Hi Lorgryt

I've got to agree with you. I stress now I haven't played MRQ yet, but the whole thing about rune integration does seem a bit OTT to me. Also, I'm not going to jump up and down - just play my game the way I want to (subject to player approval, natch). Having read quite a few of the threads on this board, I'm moving more and more towards the idea of a MRQ/RQIII hybrid, picking and chosing rules that go together, and that we like.

Plus, I'm getting on a bit now - old dog, new tricks and all that. Plus, all that time I spent memorising the RQIII weapons table can't have been in vain! It can't!!

 

[simonh]

I dn't think it's quite that bad. Look at the rules for more advanced startig characters - they ALL get a handfull of runes to attune. It seems like the intention is that runes, and therefore rune magic be very common. The book says it's the most common form of magic in Glorantha, so someone on the farmstead having a rune or two doesn't seem far fetched.

Maybe it won't be quite as common as in RQ2 or 3, but from what we can see at the moment I expect it won't be far off.

Also don't forget that in RQ2 or 3 many ordinary people even had a point or two of divine magic for emergencies. That may well be the case in MRQ as well.

Yes there are some unanswered quesions, and potential worries about MRQ. Right now there are certainly some ballance issues, but let's at least wait and see the whole system, and the full Gloranthan localised rules set before getting too worked up.

Simon Hibbs

 

[iamtim]

So, now, every one that used to be an integral part of the mythic fabric of the world is a drooling minion.

For Glorantha, yes. But you need to remenber that MRQ != Glorantha. MRQ is built as a GENERIC set of rules that uses Glorantha as its example world.

Remember, there's a complete different book for Glorantha 2nd Age. I expect you'll see variations of the systems running through MRQ in the G2A book.

Unless, maybe, in 2nd Age, Runes is how you cast magic and sometime before the 3rd Age a magical breakthrough happens which alleviates the need for Runes. *shrug*

 

[Lorgryt]

Yes there are some unanswered quesions, and potential worries about MRQ. Right now there are certainly some ballance issues, but let's at least wait and see the whole system, and the full Gloranthan localised rules set before getting too worked up.

I wouldn't say I am "worked up," Simon. I love the Rune Integration idea, and quests to get them. The idea that by killing a Broo priest you will wrench a Fertility rune out of the hands of Chaos and be able to return it to use by you or a clansman is fantastic. This is the heart and soul of world driven plot hooks. And, by definition of the basic rules the 6 or 12 runes held by “such a one” will all become available to the party... making 2 or 3 such adventures enough to give a party of five 4 to 8 runes each... fairly common actually.

I do, however, have a difficult time with the Runes being for simple Spirit Magic. I feel it removes some of my favorite “flavors” from the game. I also have an issue with the Rune being a small natural item that must be held during casting. This should slow up spell casting due to the time needed to find the needed item if it isn’t where it could get lost in a walk through a bramble. I prefer the idea of Rune Integration being an internalized idea... as the attuning happens the item is absorbed and a scar or tattoo appears on the body of the character. Then a rune to focus on can be painted or carved into armor or weapons for a quick glance. On death the Rune items appear around the corpse. It just seems more logical to the way the world “flows” for me (a bit Guild Wars with the appearence of treasures as the body fades away... :wink: )

As I said, I do not expect any of the hard working folks at Mongoose to do anything about that. It is something I have a problem with, and it will be something I will address for my own game experience if not for public consumption (probably as a post on my page).

I have been playing RQ since RQ I came out in 78 (yep... old) and I am looking forward to all of Mongoose’s RQ line. I probably will not purchase adventures, but the rest of the books (Glorantha in particular) are interesting to me... well, Lankmar not so much... but even that is of some interest (maybe the PDF version). The Companion is due out in a few days and I am hoping to have it in a fortnight or so... that will help me get to know how the system was intended.

So, I am not trying to start a battle, and I am not trying to influence Mongoose into changing any of their plans (as if I could! LOL). I just wanted to start a discussion and see how others felt.

I am going to reserve final judgment until I have a chance to see the final product, but I have talked to my players about it and they are in favor of Rune magic being Devine Rune magic from RQ II/III instead of Spirit Magic. I will certainly make any house rules about this public.

By the way, I am one of the few I have seen that has played all of the versions of RQ (even Hero Quest), and I like MRQ. It has some very good things to offer. There are things I don’t like, but that is true of a lot of things for most of us. But over all I am very happy about the book being published, about the way it is rewritten and updated, and about the approachability of both the staff and this forum (although there are times that the Passion Spirits seem to posses some/all of us). :shock:

 

[atgxtg]

Remember, there's a complete different book for Glorantha 2nd Age. I expect you'll see variations of the systems running through MRQ in the G2A book.

I don't think so. Based on some of the descriptions I've seen posted, it look like the Imperal Age book is more setting and flavor text. WE are pretty much expected to run the seetting with the rules provided in the core book and the Companion. If they match oup or not the the setting is a secondary concern.

Also, stuff like the magic system is the sort of theing that rReg doesn't care about as far as getting Issaries approval goes.

I think the reason why the core book is vague on the aviable of runes is so that the newbies can keep them rare, and the pronice of the dedicatred spellcasters, while the old time GLorantha fans can make them commoon and "Battle Magic" up their csmpaigns.

I don't believe there is an underlying system to the frequency of magic now. Or, if there is, it is much rareer, and no one is going to bee starting off with 1D3 points of spless +1/5 years, or buying a few points of magic with starting money, like in the old days.

 

[B_Steele]

I don't believe there is an underlying system to the frequency of magic now.

Correct. It is left to the individual setting and Games Master to decide how many Runes are lying about, and how easy it is to find them.

-Bry

 

[mthomason]

"Magic of Glorantha details the spectacular magical and mystical powers of the two greatest empires to ever stride the Gloranthan stage. From the draconic mysticism of the EWF to the heroquesting grandeur of the God Learners, this book covers all the reality-shattering power that eventually brings low an entire world. Including a host of new runic powers for the more mundane Rune Magic..."

Magic of Glorantha, due out in November. Does that help anyone? I'm thinking the "more mundane Rune Magic" may be just what is being looked for and found "absent" from the core book.

 

[iamtim]

I don't think so.

We'll have to wait and see, I suppose. It's all conjecture at this point. Just keep in mind that it's been stated by Mongeese on multiple occasions, when talking about Gloranthan incompatibilities in the RAW, that RuneQuest is a *generic* rulebook.

I don't think they'd stress that fact in that situation if the Glorantha book didn't modify the core RuneQuest rules to be more Gloranthan. That might very well be simply specifying the frequency of Runes so that everybody and their brother has one, or it might be re-implementing Spirit Magic.

Again, all conjecture. We'll see.

 

[Exubae]

Just a thought, its kind of on topic:

Player characters, being part of communities, be it clan, tribe, or Cult stand a good chance of inhereting runes from those communities, and I suppose adding to them as they 'kick the bucket' and allow new family/ initiates dibs are their hard won runes.

So if your prone to be out in the sun all day leading the oxen and plough arround a field, chances are you clan/tribe might gift you with a Metal rune and teach you blade sharp- if it helps feed the family.
So that old Metal Rune of dear departed uncle Budrath gets a new owner.
But, such a gift would mean your forced to join the local Fryd(cant have the combat potential of the Rune going to waste).

Still think that cult initiation aught to grant the cultist access to the rune casting for the cults runes (Though not the Rune Power).
Which means your average initaite gets access to the spells that help him in his every day life.

Cheers Paul

 

[simonh]

I do, however, have a difficult time with the Runes being for simple Spirit Magic. I feel it removes some of my favorite “flavors” from the game. I also have an issue with the Rune being a small natural item that must be held during casting. This should slow up spell casting due to the time needed to find the needed item if it isn’t where it could get lost in a walk through a bramble.

RQ 3 spells (and I believe RQ2, but I'm not certain) required spell foci, also small physical objects. These were usualy assumed to be attached to clothing, on rings, wrist bands, etc. I agree that having to hold them in one hand is a bit of a pain, but that's easily houseruled if you like, and attaching them to sword pommels and such will help. Again I don't think it's a real issue and it's actualy only a marginal change from previous editions.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Lorgryt]

RQ 3 spells (and I believe RQ2, but I'm not certain) required spell foci, also small physical objects. These were usualy assumed to be attached to clothing, on rings, wrist bands, etc. I agree that having to hold them in one hand is a bit of a pain, but that's easily houseruled if you like, and attaching them to sword pommels and such will help. Again I don't think it's a real issue and it's actualy only a marginal change from previous editions.

This is true, however it was something the player did to his own equipment. It allowed, for instance, runes to be inscribed on the blade of a sword so the needed rune was readily available. It did not “require” the item be foreign to the character.

Magic of Glorantha, due out in November. Does that help anyone? Smile I'm thinking the "more mundane Rune Magic" may be just what is being looked for and found "absent" from the core book.

As I said, I await with eagerness the arrival of spring... or at least all the new books. I do not know if I will use the “cannon” rules, but I am certain there will be useful information in the books making this book, and no doubt the rest as well, worth the wait. Thanks for the tease Matt! :lol:

 

[Exubae]

RQ2, didn't require a focui for spells affecting oneself, but did require a focui (usually a rune carved stone or wand) when affecting anything external to the caster.

Paul

 

[Enpeze]

I admit "holding runes in your hand while casting" is rather annoying. I like the rune incorporation system, but this is a rule I surely dont use. IMFU (in my fantasy universe) the spellcaster has to have a focus (ring, chain, pommel or whatever) with the rune on it near him, but no need to hold it in his hands. Also I prefer the magic not that spectacular. So there will be almost no visual effects, like this is suggested in the rule book. But of course this is only IMFU.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

I'm in complete agreement with the OP, and there are worrying signs in the previews (preview 3, p. 86, "adventurers report a high concentration of runes here, particularly water runes") that this is going to be the way of things in Glorantha too.

Now, I'm not against the concept of runes (and the collecting thereof), nor am I against the implementaion of this concept in MRQ, but... they chose the wrong type of magic to tie them to!

 

[atgxtg]

I
Now, I'm not against the concept of runes (and the collecting thereof), nor am I against the implementaion of this concept in MRQ, but... they chose the wrong type of magic to tie them to!

You mean like the cult rune associations hsould have been with Rune (Divine) magic rather than Rune (SPirit) Magic. Probably.

It might laos be possible that the cults acess to certain runes might allow menber free acess to Rune Magic that is covered under the cult's runes.

After all, if Runes are drops of the gods blood, and are empowered. Why wouldn't the source of those runes have the same powers and be able to grant them to worhsippers. THat would be very much in the nold of Glorantha, and would pretty much mesh with how thing used to work. So a god like Ortlanh, with his Air, Motion and Mastery runes would be able to grant spells requring the Air, Motion, and Mastery runes.

Focii could even be brought back as the link to the diety.

 

[Exubae]

After all, if Runes are drops of the gods blood, and are empowered

Yep, but so where Crystals of one sort of another.

There is going to be a hell of a lot 'dead' gods lying around to get the kind of Battle/Spirit magic that was common place in RQ2/3...
...which mean there is going to be a lot of metal and crystals kickin arround as well

Would have been better to tie the Runes into the shattered spiritual remenants of the Celestial court, though a little to Glorantha for a generic book.

rune associations hsould have been with Rune (Divine) magic rather than Rune (Spirit) Magic

Would have had a better feel, but my judgments out on that one till we see the Spirit/shamanistic magic rear its head.

Paul

 

[atgxtg]

[

There is going to be a hell of a lot 'dead' gods lying around to get the kind of Battle/Spirit magic that was common place in RQ2/3...
...which mean there is going to be a lot of metal and crystals kickin arround as welll

Not necessarily. Keepin mind all the tough fighting that goes on in those Heroquests? Like when Orlanth foguht with Humakt for days, mulitple times, during the Hu the Sword myth?

We might get a bunch of Air, Motion, Mastery, Truth and Death runes from that one myth alone.

Now if you consider how HeroQuesters are said to "become" the god during Heroquests, especially when Heroes attempt the "high stakes" ones, it might even be possible that some heroequests are creating new runes.

An initiate might reenact the Hu the Sword myth and walk away with a minor cut and the Death & Truth runes.

 

[Exubae]

The biggest negative I can see from integration is 'Rune bagging' , or characters targeting rune touched NPCs - gone will be the days of ransoming back cult heroes, instead they'll bestrung high and their Runes extracted.

Gives a whole new take on Humakti Rune lord getting challenged by a Zorak Zorani Troll to single combat, only to discover the Troll has 30 mates with black glistening maces hiding in the bushes (intent of Pilfering his Runes).

It smacks a little of XP for killing mosters... if you know what I mean.
The reward for killing (starting sound like an aging hippy) niggles me, it feels contrived and an excuse for churning out poor and unintelligent adventure plots.

We might get a bunch of Air, Motion, Mastery, Truth and Death runes from that one myth alone.

Heroquesting/Ritual enactment might have been a better way to gain runes, and limit them to the enacter, when he dies they go with him.

Just got happy with combat. Now, I've talked myself out of liking rune magic

Paul

 

[mthomason]

<GM> The Rune Lord thanks you for your help, and turns to leave.

<Player 1> Okay, I'm leav.. wait, you said Rune Lord?

<GM> Erm. Yes?

(players disappear into a huddle for about ten seconds)

<Player 2> Right, I'm shoving my dagger through his ribs.
<Player 3> I'm smacking him in the head with the first heavy object I can lay my hands on.
<Player 1> I'm giving him a swift kick between the legs.
<Player 4> Assuming all of that distracts him, I'll throttle him.