Robotic ships

[Bardicheart]

My take on it, or at least what may have been intended, was that robots and AI are more limited. Full, reliable AI isn't supposed to be possible until TL17 or 18, with real AI in its infancy at TL 16 (LBB9: Library Data, p63). This hasn't always been faithfully kept to in various books which has perhaps confused the issue somewhat (Book 9 - Robots has the possibility of AI spontaneously occurring in any robot above TL11, which while probably realistic based on current real world tech, it contradicts the established Traveller tech tree; if were to edit a rewrite of that book I would move that up to TL13 at least, probably TL14. Overall, I think the book tends to allow robots to be much too "human" for the TLs available; though I understand the author's choice as its more in keeping with current trends in both sci-fi and technology). So, my guess is with skills limited to rating 3, and the apparent intended limits on robot "intelligence", plus the possibility of them being compromised by electronic intrusion; the result were restrictions on automation of starships and spacecraft (borrowing from a post elsewhere, the Tunguska event was the result of a chunk of rock around 1800 dT exploding over Siberia... would anyone really want the possibility of a malfunctioning automated 5000 dT freighter doing the same?). Part of the "problem" here is a game and original concepts written in the 70's running up against current views and thinking on the subject. I see the same with computers in Traveller (especially starship computers) which are generally very bulky; when the game was originally written nobody realized the full impact of Moore's Law and Bill Gates still thought 640kb of RAM would be plenty for anyone... ever. Ah the naivete.

Robots in Traveller would, at least from the impression I have, be too limited in their ability to respond to the unexpected to be considered "safe". They could deal with things inside their programming fine, perhaps better than a human could; but outside of that their ability to adapt drops off sharply. Robots have a very limited capacity to think creatively, to make intuitive connections; there are no robot poets. Having a quirky but loveable astromech in engineering on your free trader is fine, having robots running the whole ship is something most of the 3I, especially the Vilani, find somewhere between unsettling and genuinely frightening.

This is from the Pirate of Drinax campaign, the Demon's Eye (reprinted here only because its available free so shouldn't be an issue). I think it sheds some additional light that may be helpful on 3I attitudes about technology.

The Solomani believed the path of technological development was straight and direct as an arrow. One discovery built upon another, and another, each breakthrough expanding the scientific knowledge of the species. There might be accidents, setbacks, the occasional dark age or ecological catastrophe, but the path of advancement bent ever upwards towards some unimaginable glorious future.

The Vilani, older and wiser, knew otherwise. Technological development is not a constant. It is like the tides. A world might surge forward in a great wave of advancement, a flood of knowledge, then fall back like the retreating surf. Hundreds or even thousands of years might pass without any further change, one generation following the rules and systems laid down by their parents, choosing comfortable stability over dangerous advancement. The path of technological development is not a straight line - it is a maze, with many blind alleys and even more pit traps and perils.

The Third Imperium advances not in a sudden wave, but with the steady, measured pace of a rising ocean. New developments are carefully monitored, weighed, judged and considered before they are allowed to come to fruition. The Imperium has murdered its share of geniuses and prophets. The alternative is to risk the extinction of Humaniti. Look at the few examples of unfettered technological advancement. The Ancients wiped themselves out in an apocalyptic war. The Darrians nearly blew up their own sun in their hubris. And in the Trojan Reach, the transhumanists of Neumann brought ruin upon themselves in a single ghastly hour. The future must ripen slowly, or it will be bitter.

Now, on the subject of drones. Drones being remotely controlled (meaning a sophont operator somewhere) I could see as being fine for cargo shuttles moving things from planet to orbit and back. Moving between planets might be problematic due to signal lag (take for example Curiosity on Mars, it takes 30 min for a command to reach it. The controllers at NASA spend hours coming up with instructions for it, sometimes just to move it 10 meters). Also we might wonder if there are labor unions in 3I? I can see a "spacedock worker's union" demanding all cargo shuttles have sophont pilots to ensure jobs. Just another idea to contemplate, sophont's are notoriously inefficient about things.

BTW, why would you sling cargo into orbit on a linear accelerator catapult when anti-grav shuttles are available, fuel is cheap and energy is so plentiful its almost free? That shuttle is far more versatile and ultimately a lot safer (it can stop, once you fire a cargo packet you can't put the brakes on or call it back or change its course).

 

[dragoner]

I don't suppose anyone who has 'IISS Ship Files' could post the name of that 3I robot, jump transport?

Huh? I don't see that in there.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

I don't suppose anyone who has 'IISS Ship Files' could post the name of that 3I robot, jump transport?

Huh? I don't see that in there.

It was my recollection that there was one in that supplement... I don't have the book with me at the moment (it's in the UK), so can't check myself. I might have been mistaken in thinking there was one, but that was why I was asking.

Personally I view the 3rd Imperium OTU as "retro 1970's-stylee" space-opera. Thus it has all the tropes of that period and genre. As AI and heavy automation would spoil the "rubber-suit" feel of the setting, they shouldn't really be an obvious facet of the OTU (some would say latter versions show this issue up clearly).

 

[dragoner]

I don't suppose anyone who has 'IISS Ship Files' could post the name of that 3I robot, jump transport?

Huh? I don't see that in there.

It was my recollection that there was one in that supplement... I don't have the book with me at the moment (it's in the UK), so can't check myself. I might have been mistaken in thinking there was one, but that was why I was asking.

Personally I view the 3rd Imperium OTU as "retro 1970's-stylee" space-opera. Thus it has all the tropes of that period and genre. As AI and heavy automation would spoil the "rubber-suit" feel of the setting, they shouldn't really be an obvious facet of the OTU (some would say latter versions show this issue up clearly).

From CT, Rock and Pebble jumped automatically in adventure 6, though it was a misjump; I don't think the professor's daughter piloted it.

Yes, Trav is the inheritor of Cambellian paperback sci-fi, plus the Saturday afternoon creature features on WGN out of Chicago. Growing up in the same cultural milieu as the guys from GDW, I never much thought about where it came from until recently.

 

[Condottiere]

Widespread robot paranoia works in BSG, a little harder when you have floating cities and zero illegal immigration to do the dirty jobs citizens feel are beneath them.

 

[Jacqual]

Wish I could find my old, detailed post on this. I don't know which forum I even posted it on.

To sum it up, I discussed the fact that even if it was technically possible that doesn't mean it is allowed.

Some options included
- Average Stellar automation technology may be able to handle what it is programmed for but has not perfected an AI that is as versatile as a crew at handling situations that are not pre programmed.
- Laws based on a not so pleasant past which are designed to ensure that sentient beings are the ones in charge.
- Insurance requires an qualified and accountable crew.
- The hack for your ship has been posted online and now anyone in the universe can take over your ship.

I recall giving one complication based on the laws of robotics
1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

So automated ships would be an easy target for a pirate or smuggler or other nefarious person.

I hadn't thought about this; insurance and hacking. There is no technical reason not to have robotic ships IF you can guarentee to the insurance company that you are hack proof.

So that would put a crimp in my plans for automated freight. Barges and other such low cost items should be ok - just dump them in a transfer orbit, monitored, with human crewed tug boats on either end of the run. Or linear accelerator catapults launching water or fuel or bulk grain into orbit. But anything like people or ships that can fly around and be stolen, thats another story.

And if jump requires sentience, for some reason, the X-boat system is still not in any great danger. Why build a costly AI android to man an X-boat when you can probably get some poor first term Scout to sit in the tin can with your mail? Of course that brings up why someone built an AI just to let it loose as a PC to run around and get into trouble?

If you are referring to Aybee 101 as the AI android, he did not become self aware until he had been around for quite awhile. He was origionally created to be an aide and test for his creator (name escapes me at the moment) and he did not become an AI until after he was tampered with by a Hiver and upgraded to TL 17 in the computation aspect of his brain.

 

[darue]

while it may be technically possible, subject to the debates of philosophy, metaphysics, theology and the rest - "true" AI (as opposed to expert systems capable of limited cognitive processing) are simply NOT built. because why? You can not "own" your creation, much less sell it. Pinocchio just wanders off and does what it wants to. Imperial anti-slavery laws ensure it's absolute right to do so. In the same way, although it should be well possible by TL12+, intelligent biological life forms are not created.

you don't get to build perfect slaves just because you use a different set of materials.

This is not to say such things haven't gone on in the long history, and who knows what horrors lurk in some Red Zones?

 

[High Orbit Drifter]

If you are referring to Aybee 101 as the AI android, he did not become self aware until he had been around for quite awhile. He was origionally created to be an aide and test for his creator (name escapes me at the moment) and he did not become an AI until after he was tampered with by a Hiver and upgraded to TL 17 in the computation aspect of his brain.

Wow, I did not know that! I've only seen a few of those old DGP magazines, mostly the later ones. Dr. Krenstein was his creators name - interestingly enough I read an interview with the author who did not realize it sounded like "Frankenstein" until much later.

I wonder how much difference it makes, outside of metaphysics, that an android/robot/whatever is an 'expert system' rather than 'intelligent'. I mean, from a playability standpoint. I recently reread some of Asimov's Robot novels, and with those famous Three Laws those robots, intelligent as they might be, certainly had some limitations.

There was the one exchange between a robot and a human that got me thinking about this as well: paraphrasing it went -
Human - "You're just a robot, you can never write a symphony, paint a masterpiece, write a poem"
Robot - "Can you?"

 

[High Orbit Drifter]

while it may be technically possible, subject to the debates of philosophy, metaphysics, theology and the rest - "true" AI (as opposed to expert systems capable of limited cognitive processing) are simply NOT built. because why? You can not "own" your creation, much less sell it. Pinocchio just wanders off and does what it wants to. Imperial anti-slavery laws ensure it's absolute right to do so. In the same way, although it should be well possible by TL12+, intelligent biological life forms are not created.

you don't get to build perfect slaves just because you use a different set of materials.

This is not to say such things haven't gone on in the long history, and who knows what horrors lurk in some Red Zones?

Why uplift a Dolphin? You can't own it, you can't directly profit from it. Dolphins, chimps, gorillas, etc., are communities of intelligent beings, and, as you point out, not slaves. Red Zones aside I think people will, fictional setting or actual future, build an AI just to see if they can.

 

[darue]

Why uplift a Dolphin? You can't own it, you can't directly profit from it. Dolphins, chimps, gorillas, etc., are communities of intelligent beings, and, as you point out, not slaves. Red Zones aside I think people will, fictional setting or actual future, build an AI just to see if they can.

well, giving a little leg up to the also-rans was the only decent thing to do, at the time. typical solomani exuberance. :wink:

but yeah, I think there wold probably be an imperial high law against creating new forms of sophont. What if they do it wrong for instance? Too risky. and who's to judge how well done the work was. Attempting such a thing is probably grounds for involuntary commitment to a mental rehabilitation center.

but yeah, at some times it would have been tried, probably successfully (as far as we can tell) in some cases.

 

[Condottiere]

The chimps may be out of luck if the Imperium decides they represent an existential risk, the dolphins probably could disappear in the Deep. The Vargr may make a diplomatic protest if you decide to put down Scoobie.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

There's nothing in the rules about using completely computerised ships, and no need for a "sophant" or (intelligent?) biological entity to be on a ship for it to jump. Similarly, no rules problem for in system ships being computerised.

As other posts have pointed out, the issues are cultural, and to do with safety, and perceptions of who is actually in control. For the x boats, the scout is presumably a back up system for the computer, and the computer a back up for the scout, if one dies in jump, or the other un-plugs, the message can still get through.

The original post mentioned jump torpedoes, I was under the impression that the problem there is not that they don't carry a sophant, but because of their size, less than 100dt, they are unable to reliably form jump bubbles.

Egil

 

[Condottiere]

It seems now definite and canon, the jump drives splutter out if they're not pushing minimum one hundred tons into the wild wild wild surrealistic yonder.

So you could have a jump torpedo, but it would be forty times larger than normal.

 

[Bardicheart]

because why? You can not "own" your creation, much less sell it. Pinocchio just wanders off and does what it wants to. Imperial anti-slavery laws ensure it's absolute right to do so. In the same way, although it should be well possible by TL12+, intelligent biological life forms are not created.

In principle I agree, but I don't think the 3I does. I need to find the specific references but I recall reading the in general the 3I does not consider robots or AI's as sophonts and therefore they aren't entitled to the same rights nor does the anti-slavery prohibition apply. I also recall that while some worlds apparently do give AI's equal rights, I also seem to recall that in much of the 3I AI is banned and destroyed when discovered (looks like I'll be doing some research this weekend). Seems inconsistent in how its handled though. The 3I seems to be very restrictive in some regards, psionics and the suppression wars being a good example. Sophonts were outright murdered or lobotomized wholesale for something they were simply born with. AI's often don't seem to fare much better. But then given incidents like Neumann, or Cymbeline, I'm not sure I blame the 3I... the Vilani may have a point.

You're also right about what is legal / illegal vs what really goes on. Fact: today slavery is outlawed everywhere on Earth. Fact: today, more people live in slavery on Earth than at any point in history. Laws don't make a problem go away.

There was the one exchange between a robot and a human that got me thinking about this as well: paraphrasing it went -
Human - "You're just a robot, you can never write a symphony, paint a masterpiece, write a poem"
Robot - "Can you?"

Its a misleading question (and as a matter of fact, yes I can write a poem, paint a picture or write music... so there! :lol: ). The real question is, can a robot be creative... can it imagine something new? If its just a robot, it can't. It might be able to compose a poem if it were specifically programmed to do so, it could write poems with perfect rhyme and iambic pentameter... but all it would really be doing is following pre-set rules and mimicing what sophonts had done in style and composition. Ask it to write a completely new poem outside those parameters and... does not compute. Creativity, imagination are necessary ingredients to sentience, its what allows us to leap beyond what we know, what we've been taught, and create something new. That something new may seem utterly insignificant to most of us. A child drawing a crude picture with crayons, lacking any semblance of proportion, perspective or realism (and easy to forget what a marvel it really is, or the emotional content behind its creation); and yet that crude picture is something entirely beyond any robot or computer no matter how sophisticated, simply because the child can imagine, the robot cannot.

In game terms, a robot could seem amazing and super intelligent at tasks that are within its programming. A robot painter could paint your house with murals that would make the Cistine Chapel look dull by comparison. Of course those murals would be reproductions of others work, or at best compositions of the styles and work of multiple artists who's work have be programmed into its database. None of it will be truly original, but to the average consumer, who cares...

Would you look at my dining room... is that not just AWESOME! Wait, what do you mean the Millers have one just like it... ROBOT start over... this time I want you to add in some pre-Raphaelite elements mixed with some Ildurian flourishes... and let's go with cerulean blue as a base pallet this time.

That sexbot may be a fantastic lover... she'll even tell you she loves you, her skin will blush, she'll flutter her eyes and seem coy. Of course you asked for coy and the romantic experience... Maybe if she's really sophisticated she comes with a psychology program allowing her to be a good listener and pick up on body language and indirect verbal cues to assess the kind of lover you prefer without having to directly ask or be told... and then she loads a set of pre-programmed routines based on those preferences all designed to give you the best experience technology can bring you. It may seem like she's really into you, but in the end its all just programming and databases and information being collated and processed to produce an inevitable result. But if you ask her what it feels like to be in love... she doesn't know, she never will.

Going back to Darue's point about AI and slavery. I actually find the 3I's apparent suppression of AI more interesting as an environment to roleplay in. Suppose your character just discovered they are actually an android, a true AI... he can write original poems, be creative... even love. But he has to hide, afraid of being discovered and possibly destroyed. Do he trust the rest of the crew, who can he tell, anyone? Lot of role playing potential in that. Likewise suppose you build a robot, it was just supposed to be something to help run your ship, take care of maintenance and maybe play a game of checkers with you during long jumps. You tinkered with its software trying to make it more entertaining, give it some quirks for "personality". But then one day something happens, an accident... you would have died except that bot, it did something amazing... it did something beyond its programming, it was creative, and it save your life. Its not just a robot anymore, its an fledgling AI, self-aware... and its your friend, it saved you. What would you do? How far would you go to protect it? What happens if years later that same robot, now an AI, starts acting strangely... even dangerous. What then, do you try to save your friend, or destroy it... is that murder... self defense... were the Vilani right all along? What happens when our sympathy for another sentient thing conflicts with our need to survive... or theirs?

I think that was part of the thinking when the 3I was originally written. Its interesting because it addresses questions we still have. Futurist predict we may see real AI by the end of this century (maybe, maybe not)... what will they be like, how will we treat them, will we be friends... or competitors. Will they replace us, make war on us, protect us, will they be as screwed up as us? Will AI's need cybernetic therapists for their artificial father issues? Will they be digital messiahs come to save us from ourselves. Will they dream electronic dreams? Will those dreams become our nightmare? Lots of role playing potential.

Kara: I want to live

Apologies if I'm derailing the original discussion, as I'm sure is apparent, I find the topic fascinating.

 

[High Orbit Drifter]

It seems now definite and canon, the jump drives splutter out if they're not pushing minimum one hundred tons into the wild wild wild surrealistic yonder.

So you could have a jump torpedo, but it would be forty times larger than normal.

Wouldn't that still be cheaper than an icecream cone X-Boat?

 

[alex_greene]

The short adventure "A Dagger At Efate" featured an entirely automated ship, which had been jury-rigged to be a bomb.

 

[Reynard]

"I don't suppose anyone who has 'IISS Ship Files' could post the name of that 3I robot, jump transport?"

I am assuming you mean the Games Workshop book from 1981. I see nothing called a jump transport and the only computer controlled vessel is the Standard Automated Interdiction Satellite. Old Supplement 9: Fighting ships has a Jump Ship but has a crew and a Model/6 computer. Even new Supplement 10: Merchants and Cruisers has a Jump Carrier but again has a pilot/astrogator.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

"I don't suppose anyone who has 'IISS Ship Files' could post the name of that 3I robot, jump transport?"

...the only computer controlled vessel is the Standard Automated Interdiction Satellite.

That's the one I was thinking about... it's my mind half-remembering things!

That said, I can see no specific reason to not have robotic ships. The rules system certainly doesn't disallow them.

 

[Reynard]

Not sure how canon a third party book from the early 80s introducing various systems such as the IECC 4.4.LLJ computer to a stationary gum platforms would be today. Actually, that satellite would be possible with today's drone rules. Again, it's a stationary drone.

Looking over pgs. 92-93 of the core rulebook, it would seem very possible to have a ship's computer pilot and astrogate (and gunnery) a ship. One problem is the amount of computer memory it takes up leaving little for anything else unless there a separate computer on board solely for the autopilot. It's probably cheaper to hire people which passengers are more comfortable with.

That said, it is possible just not commercially viable. That means experimental (the Kinunir), special missions or a noble or CEO with too much credits wants such a toy. Adventurers with extra cash could do this too. LOTS of plot potential there.

 

[High Orbit Drifter]

Not sure how canon a third party book from the early 80s introducing various systems such as the IECC 4.4.LLJ computer to a stationary gum platforms would be today. Actually, that satellite would be possible with today's drone rules. Again, it's a stationary drone.

Looking over pgs. 92-93 of the core rulebook, it would seem very possible to have a ship's computer pilot and astrogate (and gunnery) a ship. One problem is the amount of computer memory it takes up leaving little for anything else unless there a separate computer on board solely for the autopilot. It's probably cheaper to hire people which passengers are more comfortable with.

That said, it is possible just not commercially viable. That means experimental (the Kinunir), special missions or a noble or CEO with too much credits wants such a toy. Adventurers with extra cash could do this too. LOTS of plot potential there.

I would think adventurers hired in a seedy startown bar would be more concerned with stealing such a ship and having it fly itself to some other system.