Riders!

[Chas]

So the following was something I did to show how different chassis might look at the 2K, 5K and 10K points. The Orca is what I've called the 5K point, and this design is what I've looked at to show what it shouldn't be. The Orca I see as a pack hunter overwhelming bigger ship defenses with either massed fusions, or massed missiles or torps. I don't think it wants the little thrust as shown there as it loses too much firepower tonnage for its role. The small thrust is good for the 2K and 10K builds where dodging could be critical. Similarly it doesn't want to mix weapon types, it should be all missiles/torps or all energy weapons. Stealth is debatable.

 

[Chas]

This Werewolf is a build I've wanted to do every since I saw Ion weapons introduced. Vulnerable to fighters like all riders, but also a good reason not to ever lose space superiority.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I do not see much room for battle riders in this system. As far as I can see a rider + carrier would be more expensive than a starship with the same armament, and the rider would have less hull points, be more fragile. Carriers are very expensive...

If you call them SDBs on the other hand...

 

[Chas]

I do not see much room for battle riders in this system. As far as I can see a rider + carrier would be more expensive than a starship with the same armament, and the rider would have less hull points, be more fragile. Carriers are very expensive...

If you call them SDBs on the other hand...

That'll be part of this thread I'm hoping. Want to get a couple of carrier designs in here and see how this scrubs up. It'll relate to spinal design as well. If the spinal's doing lots of damage/ton the multiple riders should get a boost. If the spinal's luke warm in effect the riders get pushed aside.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The SDB has two USPs: Reaction drives and Planetoid hulls.

Planetoid hulls make for very cheap SDBs, probably effective. Lousy for carried craft.

Reaction drives take a lot of space, you give up all the space you gained by omitting the jump drive and fuel. Questionable, except in special cases like the Werewolf that really needs to get in close.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Cost estimate for CHEAP carrier.

Civilian grade (budget) hull and drives.
Partially streamlined with fuel processors (24 h).
The only military concession is good sensors and ECM. I really do not want to be surprised.
J-4, M-2, no armour. 60 crew, flight crew not included.
All jump fuel in permanent drop tanks.
Carries one 2000 dT rider in docking space. Not good, but cheap. Full hangars would double the cost of the carrier.
170 dT cargo for spare parts and supplies.
GCr 2 in bulk.

TL 15              HullP 1440                        2137,2      
                         Desired  Rat   #   dTonn    Cost   Power  Hardp  Crew
Hull                                         4000             800     40  
Config  Sphere               3     3          110      
Hull strength  Light         1     1            
Repair Drones                1     1           40       8      
                  
JumpD      Budget, Late      4     4    1     672     756    2667          19
ManœuvreD  Budget, EneIneff  2     2    1     133     200    1667           4
PowerP     TL12:2*Size                  1     186     232    3487           5
                  
Drop Tank Collar  2666,7 dT  1     1    2      21,3    10,7      
Drop Tank         2666,7 dT                            66,7      
Fuel, Jump                          
Fuel, Power                  4     4    1      17        
Fuel Purification         24 h  24 h    1     133       7      
                  
Bridge                       1          1      60      20      
    Holographic              1          1               5      
Comp          m/25           5    25    1              10
Backup Comp   m/20           4    20    1               5
    /fib                     1          1               8      
                  
Sensors  Advanced            9     4    1       5       5       6    
Array  Rapid Extension       9     2    1      10      21      
Extension Net                9     1    1      40      40      
Shallow Penetration Suite    9     1    1      10       5       1
Signal Processing  Enhanced  9     2    1       2       8       2    
Countermeasures  Military    9     2    1      15      28       2    
                  
Staterooms                100%    33   33     132      17
Common Areas               25%   25%    1      33       3
Briefing Room                2          2       8       1      
Library                      1          1       4       4      
Medical Bay  10% of crew     1          2       8       4      
Workshop                     2          2      12       2      
Armoury                      1          3       3       1      
Brig                         2          2       8       1      
Low Berths                  10    10    1       5       1      10    
Cargo                                         170        
                  
Docking Space  2000 dT       1               2200     550      
Full Hangar    35,5 dT       1                 71      14                  5
                  

                  
Crew             60              
  Command         6              
  Bridge          7              
      Pilot             3            
      Astrogator        1            
      Sensor & EW       3              
  Engineer       37              
      Engineer         28
      Maintenance       8
  Service         5  
      Admin             4
      Medic             0,583333333
      Steward           0
  Gunner    
  Flight          5  
  Troops

So, we pay about GCr 1 for each 1000 dT of carried craft, for a very basic carrier. Perhaps cheap enough to be usable...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

"Samma" (brother of David) class SDB, 2000 dT, Crew: 43, MCr 1000 in bulk
9G, Armour 15.
Armament: Large "Crit fisher" Particle bay.
Defences: Armour 15, 5 PD Batteries TypeIII, 10 triple Pulse Laser turrets.
Needs to be escorted against fighters.

TL 15             HullP 1280                        1 159      
                         Desired  Rat   #   dTonn    Cost   Power  Hardp  Crew
Hull                                         2000            400     20  
Config  Buffered Planetoid   7     7          700       8      
Hull strength  Reinforced    3     3            
Armour  Bonded Superdense   20    11          176       7      
Rad Shielding                1     1                   50      
                  
ManœuvreD  VAdv,2*RedSize    9     9    1     144     360   1800            4
PowerP     TL12,3*RedSize               1     126     188   2691            4
                  
Fuel, Power                  4     4    1      13        
                  
Bridge                       1          1      60      10      
    Holographic              1          1               3      
Comp         CORE/70        14    70    1              80      
Backup Comp  m/15            3    15    1               3      
Evade/3           25                                    3      
FireControl/5     25                                   1 0      
Point Defence/2   15                                   12      
                  
Sensors  Advanced            9     4    1       5       5       6    
Array  Rapid Extension       9     2    1      10      21      
Extension Net                   
Shallow Penetration Suite    9     1    1      10       5       1
Signal Processing  Enhanced  9     2    1       2       8       2    
Countermeasures  Military    9     2    1      15      28       2    
                  
Staterooms                100%    24   24      96      12      
Common Areas                0%    0%            
Briefing Room                1          1       4       1      
Library                      1          1       4       4      
Medical Bay  10% of crew     1          1       4       2      
Workshop                     1          1       6       1      
Armoury                      1          2       2       1      
Brig                  
Low Berths                  
Cargo                                          24        

Large Bay                  
Particle  High Technology    1  TL14    1     500     180     200     5     4
Turret                  
Pulse Laser  Very Advanced  10  TL11   10      10      48     130    10    10
                  
Point Defence  Type III, 3D  5          5      90     110     150     5

So, I can get a David-class frigate for MCr 1200 or a Samma-class SDB for MCr 1000. The SDB has some missile defences so are better. but no jump. Add a MCr 2000 carrier, and the Samma is not worth it.

Planetoids are SDBs only...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

"Eliab" class Rider, 2000 dT, Crew: 37, MCr 1500 in bulk
9G, Armour 15.
Armament: Two Large "Crit fisher" Particle bay.
Defences: Armour 15, two 90 dT modules (PD, Damper with some PD, or Missile)

TL 15             HullP 960                         1 658      
                         Desired  Rat   #   dTonn    Cost   Power  Hardp  Crew
Hull                                         2000            400     20  
Config  Close Structure      7     7                  174      
Hull strength  Reinforced    3     3            
Armour  Bonded Superdense   20    15          240     209      
Rad Shielding                1     1                   50      
                  
ManœuvreD  VAdv,2*RedSize    9     9    1     144     360   1800            4
PowerP     TL12,3*RedSize               1     143     214   3061            4
                  
Fuel, Power                  4     4    1      14        
                  
Bridge                       1          1      60      10      
    Holographic              1          1               3      
Comp         CORE/100       20   100    1             130      
Backup Comp  m/25 fib        5    25    1              15      
Evade/3           25                                    3      
FireControl/5     25                                   10      
Point Defence/2   15                                   12      
                  
Sensors  Advanced            9     4    1       5       5       6    
Array  Rapid Extension       9     2    1      10      21      
Extension Net                9     1    1      20      20   
Shallow Penetration Suite    9     1    1      10       5       1
Signal Processing  Enhanced  9     2    1       2       8       2    
Countermeasures  Military    9     2    1      15      28       2    
                  
Staterooms                100%    21   21      84      11
Common Areas               25%   25%    1      21       2
Briefing Room                1          1       4       1      
Library                      1          1       4       4      
Medical Bay  10% of crew     1          1       4       2      
Workshop                     1          1       6       1      
Armoury                      1          2       2       1      
Brig                  
Low Berths                  
Cargo                                          32        

90 dT Module                 2          2     180             450    10 

Large Bay                  
Particle  High Technology    1  TL14    2    1000     360     400     5     4





Module PD  PD Battery, Type III         5      90     110     150     5  
                                               90     110     150     5  
                  

Module ND  Nuclear Damper               8      56     120     160     8
           Pulse Laser turret           5       5      27,5    65     5     5
           Stateroom                    7      28       3,5      
                                               89     151     225     5  


Module Missile  Medium bay   24        1       70      38      10     1     1
                Barbette      5        1        3,5     6             1     1
                Turret        3        3        2,1    13,2     3     3     3
                Stateroom              3       12       1,5      
                Missiles     38      421        2,217 189,45      
                                               90     248,15   13     5

MCr 1500 + MCr 2000 for the carrier = MCr 3500. A David-class frigate costs MCr 1200. So I get three starships for one rider, one is an escort. Roughly the same guns, better defences, thrice the hull points. Starships are clearly better.

 

[wbnc]

I have to agree that a rider is not economically favorable when carried into battle one or two at a time. The savings have to be multiplied several times to make a relatively vulnerable rider a sound investment. I can see the advantage if you want to deliver them to the same point at the same time rather than have them arrive piecemeal.

A single Carrier hauling ten riders would be a serious surprise to SDBs patrolling a system. They would have to rally and attack as a group, rather than picking off lone ships jumping in in a scattered fashion. Of course this is solely dependent on how accurate an attacking force could be with it's arrival time and location.

 

[Chas]

.Reaction drives take a lot of space, you give up all the space you gained by omitting the jump drive and fuel. Questionable, except in special cases like the Werewolf that really needs to get in close.

Another key point is having thrust for getting through very long range into range to use a spinal. The riders are vulnerable to missiles lacking hardpoints.

For rider carriers we want to be looking at docking clamps not hangers. Let me get an alternative build up...

 

[Chas]

Okay, so this is the ultra budget J3 Roc fleet carrier. Needs a fuel tender, but they'll be available at civilian prices and be able to refuel carriers quickly, this only needs about 4 hours to refuel, and also carries a drop tank collar at need. It's a good size in that doubling this structure will carry 5 x 25t spinal riders (I'll get this carrier up shortly) which would be another sweet spot. Easy enough to make this partially streamlined and add slow processing at need without breaking the budget. I've allowed myself to double budget the jump drives which could be argued against.

So we have 38,311 MCr lifting 65,000 tons. Should be able to get a bunch of the minimum size spinal riders on there for that lifting tonnage and let's see how that looks though the 25K might be better. I'll put the revised Orca's on here and see how they go against their preferred targets of strike cruisers and escorts.

For the David's or other 2000 ton riders they're at 20 tons for docking clamp/4MCR. So we have 32 Davids on this carrier at +88 MCr. Nothing to worry about with the price there add for the docks.

So here for your example AnotherDilber above we're getting the lift price down to about 1200MCr/rider. I.e. 2700MCr plays 3500 in your example above. A move, but is it enough and how does it match other standard designs? Not sure the crit fisher is the best example because the key weapon is the same tonnage and the rider should be able to include more firepower. To be continued...

For reference the big Roc 300K carrying 130000 tons is a bit cheaper than double, and the Roc Monster at 1M tons at need could squeeze in 5 x 100Kton riders though might need to get up to 1.05 or 1.1 Mton and a similar cost multiplier.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Your carrier is J3, my was J4. A J4 carrier is in my estimate 50% more expensive than a J3 carrier, so we are the same neighbourhood for cost. Your carrier is better since it has J5 without the craft. I do not like unstreamlined ships, they can't refuel and needs to be accompanied by tankers, driving up the total cost.

My comparison with the David-class was flawed since the David-class is J3.

I used J4 in my carrier since we can easily get it and we really want it, if for no other reason than to jump into combat with J2 and still have fuel for jumping out again.

Carrier/rider has the advantage that you can buy more riders than carriers and use them as SDBs until you have some losses, then you simply pick up the SDBs and turn then into riders.

Riders have the distinct disadvantage that they cannot retreat from combat. Without a massive acceleration advantage you will not be able to break away. We can fix that with J1 in the rider as traditional.

 

[Chas]

The retreat issue is also the point of the thrust in the riders. Pros and cons either way. The thrust helps in the battle, the J1 ensures survival to a point though by the time you might want to jump out it might no longer be an option.

But let me get some more rider examples up also. The tactical direction with riders is to bring overwhelming firepower, or should be, to counter balance the lack of retreat, you're giving battle because you're there to win or else you want to cause as much damage as possible, the last ditch defence, and then you don't want the riders to have jump anyhoo, erk! the Emperor's apologies but it's time to go down with the ship... :shock:

Or, what might actually be more relevant to typical Traveller fleet action, you bring riders to a fight because you know it is going to be so destructive you aren't going to have many left in any case if you chose to give battle. If things are that bad when you enter a system you need to jump out again immediately you'll have all sorts of problems regardless.

 

[Chas]

Okay, so here's the revised Orca as a Fusion Gun build. Preferred targets: escorts and strike cruisers (cruisers with maximized spinals).

The idea being the riders are modular in themselves. You'd have a mix depending on the battle type e.g. the torp version may be preferred for longer range.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Cost estimate for very cheap carrier à la Chas. It consists of three parts: the carried 2000 dT craft, a 870 dT jump tug, and a 1230 (or 1930) dT drop tank. I couldn't help myself, so I played some games with drop tanks.

The "Kinderägg" class Escort Carrier.
Civilian grade (budget) hull and drives.
Partially streamlined with fuel processors (24 h).
The only military concession is good sensors and basic ECM. I really do not want to be surprised.
J-3, M-1, no armour. 30 crew, flight crew not included.
All jump fuel in permanent drop tanks, mounts for two drop tanks
Carries one 2000 dT rider in docking clamp.
80 dT cargo for spare parts and supplies.
MCr 670 in bulk (MCr 335 per 1000 dT carried craft, this might be useful).

TL 15                      HullP 313,2            745,95                   
                         Desired  Rat  #  dTonn  Cost  Power  Hardp  Crew
Hull                                        870          174      8  
Config  Sphere               3     3               24      
Hull strength  Light         1     1            
                  
JumpD      Budget, Late      6     6   1    331   373   1305           9
ManœuvreD  Budget, EneIneff  3     3   1     65    96    816           1
PowerP     TL12:2*Size  Dimming req    1     70    87   1305           2
                  
Drop Tank Collar  1930 dT    1     1   2      7,7   3,9      
Drop Tank Collar  1305 dT    1     1   2      5,2   2,6      
Drop Tank         1305 dT                          32,6      
Fuel, Jump                  
Fuel, Power                  4     4   1      7        
Fuel Purification         24 h  24 h   1     62     3      
                  
Bridge                       1         1     20     4      
    Holographic              1         1            1      
Comp          m/30           6    30   1           20      
Backup Comp   m/25 bis       5    25   1           15      
                  
Sensors  Advanced            9     4   1      5     5      6    
Array  Rapid Extension       9     2   1     10    21      
Extension Net                9     1   1      9     9      
Shallow Penetration Suite    9     1   1     10     5      1    
Signal Processing  Enhanced  9     2   1      2     8      2    
Countermeasures Suite        1     1   1      2     4      1    
                  
Staterooms                100%    17  17     68     9      
Common Areas               25%   25%   1     17     2      
Briefing Room                2         2      8     1      
Library                      1         1      4     4      
Medical Bay  10% of crew     1         1      4     2      
Workshop                     2         2     12     2      
Armoury                      1         2      2     1      
Brig                         2         2      8     1      
Low Berths                  10    10   1      5     1     10    
Cargo                                        81        
UNREP                        2         2      2   
                                    
Carried Craft    2000 dT     1              
Docking Clamp    Type V      1         1     50     8      
                  
                  
                  
Crew              30              
  Command          3              
  Bridge           9             
      Pilot              3
      Astrogator         1
      Sensor & EW        5  
  Engineer        16  
      Engineer          12
      Maintenance        1,74
  Service          2  
      Admin              0,87
      Medic              0,18225
      Steward      0
  Gunner    
  Flight    
  Troops

Performance:
Tug+Craft+1305dT: J-3, M-1, fuel for J-3
Tug+1305dT: J-6, M-3, fuel for J-6

Tug+Craft+2*1305dT: J-2, M-1, fuel for 2 * J-2. I can drop one tank to get J-3 and arrive with the other drop tank full for another J-3.
Tug+2*1305dT: J-3, M-3, fuel for J-7

Tug+Craft+1930dT: J-2, M-1, fuel for 2 * J-2
Tug+1930dT: J-4, M-2, fuel for J-6


If I skip the J-6 it would cost MCr 660 => MCr 600 in bulk => MCr 300 per 1000 dT carried craft.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

"David"-class frigate: MCr 1200, one gun, no defences.
"Sköld"-class frigate, MCr 1700 (w PD modules), no gun, kills 210 missiles.
"Eliab"-class small rider: MCr 1500 + MCr 670 for carrier = MCr 2170, two guns, some defences.

10 riders: 20 guns, kills 1050 missiles, 10 * 960 = 9600 hull. MCr 21700.
16 ships:
5 "Sköld": 0 guns, kills 1050 missiles, 5 * 960 hull = 4800 hull. MCr 8500.
11 "Eliab": 11 guns, kills 0 missiles, 11 * 960 hull = 10560 hull. MCr 13200
16 ships: 11 guns, kills 1050 missiles, 16 * 960 = 15360 hull. MCr 21700.

So with the same defences the ships get 55% of the guns and 160% of the hull. The riders win.

Riders will lead to short bloody battles, as usual.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

"Abinadab"-class frigate: MCr 1325 + MCr 100 module = MCr 1425, one gun, some defences. (From the "Escorts!" tread.)
"Eliab"-class small rider: MCr 1500 + 2 * MCr 100 modules + MCr 670 for carrier = MCr 2370, two guns, some defences.

10 riders: 20 guns, kills 1050 missiles, 10 * 960 = 9600 hull. MCr 23700.
16 ships: 16 guns, kills 1800 missiles, 16 * 880 = 14080 hull. MCr 22800.

So the ships get 80% of the guns, 147% of the hull, and better defences. The ships win.

The key is that the ships have more hull and more hardpoints.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Example basic builds. Just a big spinal, filling out the hard points with laser turrets:
Rider: 50 kT, J-1, 10DD particle spinal, 220 laser turrets, hull 30000. GCr 40.5
Carrier: 14.5 kT carrier, 27.6 kT drop tank, J-3. GCr 14.5
Battleship: 100 kT, 10DD particle spinal, 720 laser turrets, hull 73333. GCr 72

10 Battleship, 10 guns, kills 43200 missiles, 733 330 hull, GCr 720.
13 Riders, 13 guns, kills 17160 missiles, 390 000 hull, GCr 715.

Riders do 130% of the damage, but has 53% of the hull. Riders have more dodges.
To hit at Long Range: +6[gunner] +5[software] +1[aid gunner] -2[range] -3[evade] -3[dodge] = +4, hit 4+ (92%). No dodge means auto-hit.
The Riders achieve 12.33 hits; kills 32% of the Battleships every round.
The Battleships achieve 9,33 hits; kills 46% of the Riders every round.

Battleships win.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Similar example builds. Drop the jump drive from the rider:
Rider: 42 kT, J-1, 10DD particle spinal, 170 laser turrets, hull 25200. GCr 34.5
Carrier: ~12 kT carrier, ~23.2 kT drop tank, J-3. GCr ~12
Battleship: 100 kT, 10DD particle spinal, 720 laser turrets, hull 73333. GCr 72

10 Battleship, 10 guns, kills 43200 missiles, 733 330 hull, GCr 720.
15 Riders, 15 guns, kills 15300 missiles, 378 000 hull, GCr 700.

Riders do 150% of the damage, but has 52% of the hull. Riders have more dodges.
To hit at Long Range: +6[gunner] +5[software] +1[aid gunner] -2[range] -3[evade] -3[dodge] = +4, hit 4+ (92%). No dodge means auto-hit.
The Riders achieve 14.33 hits; kills 38% of the Battleships every round.
The Battleships achieve 9.33 hits; kills 48% of the Riders every round.

Battleships win.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

A single Carrier hauling ten riders would be a serious surprise to SDBs patrolling a system. They would have to rally and attack as a group, rather than picking off lone ships jumping in in a scattered fashion. Of course this is solely dependent on how accurate an attacking force could be with it's arrival time and location.

This is profoundly important. The ships of your fleet arrives scattered in time and space. You arrive within 169+-15 h, a span of 31 hours. If an enemy fleet can engage you while only a part of your fleet have arrived you will take disproportionate losses.

So you have to arrive more than 30 h travel time away from any possible enemy fleet. That means at least 500 million km away from any major world or gas giant. You have to wait until the last ship has arrived, reassemble your fleet formation, and then start to accelerate towards a refuelling opportunity. The enemy can see where you arrive and start to accelerate immediately, giving them almost 30 h head start. They might very well prevent you from refuelling at a close gas giant, forcing battle before you have refuelled.

I would say you really want to arrive with enough fuel in your tanks to be able to retreat again. Since you never know what the destination system will contain when you arrive, you would always have to be careful with fuel when jumping in a war zone. If you have J-4 fuel you have to travel by J-2.