Riders!

[Chas]

Similar example builds. Drop the jump drive from the rider:
Rider: 42 kT, J-1, 10DD particle spinal, 170 laser turrets, hull 25200. GCr 34.5
Carrier: ~12 kT carrier, ~23.2 kT drop tank, J-3. GCr ~12
Battleship: 100 kT, 10DD particle spinal, 720 laser turrets, hull 73333. GCr 72

10 Battleship, 10 guns, kills 43200 missiles, 733 330 hull, GCr 720.
15 Riders, 15 guns, kills 15300 missiles, 378 000 hull, GCr 700.

Riders do 150% of the damage, but has 52% of the hull. Riders have more dodges.
To hit at Long Range: +6[gunner] +5[software] +1[aid gunner] -2[range] -3[evade] -3[dodge] = +4, hit 4+ (92%). No dodge means auto-hit.
The Riders achieve 14.33 hits; kills 38% of the Battleships every round.
The Battleships achieve 9.33 hits; kills 48% of the Riders every round.

Battleships win.

A point that will be worth redoing this with is masses of smaller spinal riders vs. the single big spinal of the battleships. A key issue here is the pack destruction of smaller riders vs. the big battleship. Where the battle ship is over killing the rider with its big spinal, while all the riders are doing damage that counts. If this tactical miss-match can be achieved it nudges the equation back towards the riders...

Actually looking at your % of hits and the numbers dying every round I think that's high for my taste for the amount of destruction of ship of the line stuff. There's certainly no pounding action of fleets there, it is just, as you said, exploding star ships.

The battle ship cost is critical here. I'm wondering how generic you think the builds you are using there are?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

A point that will be worth redoing this with is masses of smaller spinal riders vs. the single big spinal of the battleships. A key issue here is the pack destruction of smaller riders vs. the big battleship. Where the battle ship is over killing the rider with its big spinal, while all the riders are doing damage that counts. If this tactical miss-match can be achieved it nudges the equation back towards the riders...

In general many smaller ships will win. The battleships advantage is their superior hull. If we compare 10 kT ships vs 5 kT riders with 1DD spinals, they are in the same hull bracket so riders will be equal. Another problem for the riders is lack of hardpoints, but in a spinal battle that should be possible to overcome.

Actually looking at your % of hits and the numbers dying every round I think that's high for my taste for the amount of destruction of ship of the line stuff. There's certainly no pounding action of fleets there, it is just, as you said, exploding star ships.

The battle ship cost is critical here. I'm wondering how generic you think the builds you are using there are?

These are not real designs, they only have hull, drives, crew, and spinals, nothing else. If we add defences and secondary weapons the cost goes up and the kill percentages go down.

Battleship vs battleship the kill rate is 26%. Rider vs rider the kill rate is 76%.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Small example builds. Beef up the riders PD for a level flaying field.
Rider: 6500 dT, J-1, 1DD particle spinal, 37 PDBatt, hull 3120. GCr 5.8
Carrier: 2600 dT carrier, 3900 dT drop tank, J-3. GCr 2.25
Ship: 10000 dT, 1DD particle spinal, 72 laser turrets, hull 4400. GCr 7.4

10 Battleship, 10 guns, kills 4320 missiles, 44000 hull, GCr 74.
9 Riders, 9 guns, kills 3496 missiles, 28080 hull, GCr 72.5.

Riders do 90% of the damage, and has 64% of the hull. Wipeout.

Ships win.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Similar example builds. No PDBatts, just laser turrets.
Rider: 5500 dT, J-1, 1DD particle spinal, 37 laser turrets, hull 2640. GCr 4.5
Carrier: 2200 dT carrier, 3300 dT drop tank, J-3. GCr 1.95
Ship: 10000 dT, 1DD particle spinal, 72 laser turrets, hull 4400. GCr 7.4

20 Ship, 20 guns, kills 8640 missiles, 88000 hull, GCr 148.
23 Riders, 23 guns, kills 5106 missiles, 60720 hull, GCr 148.35.

Riders do 115% of the damage, and has 69% of the hull.
To hit at Long Range: +6[gunner] +5[software] +1[aid gunner] -2[range] -3[evade] -3[dodge] = +4, hit 4+ (92%).
The Riders achieve 21 hits; kills 46% of the Ships every round.
The Ships achieve 18.3 hits; kills 58% of the Riders every round.

Ships win.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Similar example builds. Drop the J-1 from the riders.
Rider: 4400 dT, J-1, 1DD particle spinal, 16 laser turrets, hull 2112. GCr 3.7
Carrier: 1900 dT carrier, 2700 dT drop tank, J-3. GCr 1.65
Ship: 10000 dT, 1DD particle spinal, 72 laser turrets, hull 4400. GCr 7.4

10 Ship, 10 guns, kills 4320 missiles, 44000 hull, GCr 74.
14 Riders, 14 guns, kills 1344 missiles, 29568 hull, GCr 75.

Riders do 140% of the damage, and has 67% of the hull.
To hit at Long Range: +6[gunner] +5[software] +1[aid gunner] -2[range] -3[evade] -3[dodge] = +4, hit 4+ (92%).
The Riders achieve 12.8 hits; kills 56% of the Ships every round.
The Ships achieve 9.2 hits; kills 59% of the Riders every round.

Draw.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Same example builds. 1 BB vs many small Riders.
Rider: 4400 dT, J-1, 1DD particle spinal, 16 laser turrets, hull 2112. GCr 3.7
Carrier: 1900 dT carrier, 2700 dT drop tank, J-3. GCr 1.65
Battleship: 100 kT, 10DD particle spinal, 720 laser turrets, hull 73333. GCr 72

1 Battleship, 1 gun, kills 4320 missiles, 73333 hull, GCr 72.
14 Riders, 14 guns, kills 1344 missiles, 29568 hull, GCr 75.

To hit at Long Range: +6[gunner] +5[software] +1[aid gunner] -2[range] -3[evade] -3[dodge] = +4, hit 4+ (92%).
The Riders achieve 13,3 hits; kills 35% of the Ship every round, Ship killed in 3 attacks.
The Ships achieve 0,92 hits; kills 0,92 Rider every round, Riders killed in 15 attacks.

Wipeout, Riders win.

 

[Chas]

A point that will be worth redoing this with is masses of smaller spinal riders vs. the single big spinal of the battleships. A key issue here is the pack destruction of smaller riders vs. the big battleship. Where the battle ship is over killing the rider with its big spinal, while all the riders are doing damage that counts. If this tactical miss-match can be achieved it nudges the equation back towards the riders...

In general many smaller ships will win. The battleships advantage is their superior hull. If we compare 10 kT ships vs 5 kT riders with 1DD spinals, they are in the same hull bracket so riders will be equal. Another problem for the riders is lack of hardpoints, but in a spinal battle that should be possible to overcome.

Actually looking at your % of hits and the numbers dying every round I think that's high for my taste for the amount of destruction of ship of the line stuff. There's certainly no pounding action of fleets there, it is just, as you said, exploding star ships.

The battle ship cost is critical here. I'm wondering how generic you think the builds you are using there are?

These are not real designs, they only have hull, drives, crew, and spinals, nothing else. If we add defences and secondary weapons the cost goes up and the kill percentages go down.

Battleship vs battleship the kill rate is 26%. Rider vs rider the kill rate is 76%.

Yes, the point about the spinal battle is the key issue and one I'd kicked around a bit too much. How the meson screens work will for sure make a difference on a fleet scale also. It might favor the riders with more space to spare for them. Or it might favour the cruisers with bigger power plants if that comes into play. It'll be interesting too once the fleet rules come out how the full fusion gun Orcas at 5K work out against the big ships. If they can overwhelm the nuclear damper and do nasty damage to them or not. And/or run torps.

But the concept of the riders being system defence boats in their down time is a good one. They'd be tasked with protecting the star ports they're based at while the cruisers are doing their general thing patrolling, as one example.

Still not entirely sold on the one jump back up.

 

[Chas]

Same example builds. 1 BB vs many small Riders.
Rider: 4400 dT, J-1, 1DD particle spinal, 16 laser turrets, hull 2112. GCr 3.7
Carrier: 1900 dT carrier, 2700 dT drop tank, J-3. GCr 1.65
Battleship: 100 kT, 10DD particle spinal, 720 laser turrets, hull 73333. GCr 72

1 Battleship, 1 gun, kills 4320 missiles, 73333 hull, GCr 72.
14 Riders, 14 guns, kills 1344 missiles, 29568 hull, GCr 75.

To hit at Long Range: +6[gunner] +5[software] +1[aid gunner] -2[range] -3[evade] -3[dodge] = +4, hit 4+ (92%).
The Riders achieve 13,3 hits; kills 35% of the Ship every round, Ship killed in 3 attacks.
The Ships achieve 0,92 hits; kills 0,92 Rider every round, Riders killed in 15 attacks.

Wipeout, Riders win.

This is the general gist of where I think riders sit. BUT, in turn the riders are vulnerable to fighters so it makes a nice cycle.

We need to watch that minimum weight of riders as noted before. But what you've got there I believe is not workable with the riders needing to be at least 2x the weight of the spinal. (and I've recommended before that spinals start at 2DD not 1DD)

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Same example builds. 1 BB vs many small Ships.
Battleship: 100 kT, 10DD particle spinal, 720 laser turrets, hull 73333. GCr 72
Ship: 10000 dT, 1DD particle spinal, 72 laser turrets, hull 4400. GCr 7.4

1 Battleship, 1 gun, kills 4320 missiles, 73333 hull, GCr 72.
10 Ships, 10 guns, kills 4320 missiles, 44000 hull, GCr 74.

To hit at Long Range: +6[gunner] +5[software] +1[aid gunner] -2[range] -3[evade] -3[dodge] = +4, hit 4+ (92%).
The Ships achieve 9,3 hits; kills 24% of the Ship every round, Ship killed in 5 attacks.
The Battleship achieve 0,92 hits; kills 0,92 Ship every round, Ships killed in 11 attacks.

Small Ships win.

 

[Chas]

Same example builds. 1 BB vs many small Ships.
Battleship: 100 kT, 10DD particle spinal, 720 laser turrets, hull 73333. GCr 72
Ship: 10000 dT, 1DD particle spinal, 72 laser turrets, hull 4400. GCr 7.4

1 Battleship, 1 gun, kills 4320 missiles, 73333 hull, GCr 72.
10 Ships, 10 guns, kills 4320 missiles, 44000 hull, GCr 74.

To hit at Long Range: +6[gunner] +5[software] +1[aid gunner] -2[range] -3[evade] -3[dodge] = +4, hit 4+ (92%).
The Ships achieve 9,3 hits; kills 24% of the Ship every round, Ship killed in 5 attacks.
The Battleship achieve 0,92 hits; kills 0,92 Ship every round, Ships killed in 11 attacks.

Small Ships win.

Yep. This is back to our pressure to build small issue that the hull point increase was supposed to help address. I believe there was a modified version that Nehersi did after the previous review of this.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

This is the general gist of where I think riders sit.

This is a problem with many small craft vs one big gun with overkill. It's the same with small ships vs. one big ship.

BUT, in turn the riders are vulnerable to fighters so it makes a nice cycle.

Both ships and riders are equally vulnerable to fighters. Even half their cost in fighters will kill then in one long round.

We need to watch that minimum weight of riders as noted before. But what you've got there I believe is not workable with the riders needing to be at least 2x the weight of the spinal. (and I've recommended before that spinals start at 2DD not 1DD)

Add some defences to the riders and that will take care of itself.

how the full fusion gun Orcas at 5K work out against the big ships. If they can overwhelm the nuclear damper and do nasty damage to them or not. And/or run torps.

Fusion guns will do reasonably well in large battles. One on one they will be stopped by Dampers. This is why I have insisted on modular defences on my designs, so i can adjust my defences against the current threat.

Still not entirely sold on the one jump back up.

It's a pain but without it you cannot retreat. The first time you get in over your head ALL riders are destroyed.


As we have seen in the examples the Riders can only be competitive by giving up all defences. They lack the hard points for missile defences and the hull points to take an attack and soldier on.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Similar example builds. Small spinal vs fusion.
Ship: 10000 dT, 1DD particle spinal, 72 laser turrets, hull 4400. GCr 7.4
Fusion Ship: 10000 dT, 30 med fusion bay (Long Range, Size), 70 laser turrets, hull 4400. GCr 6,9

15 Ships, 15 guns, kills 6480 missiles, 66000 hull, GCr 111.
16 Fusions, 480 guns, kills 6720 missiles, 70400 hull, GCr 110

Spinal: To hit at Long Range: +6[gunner] +5[software] +1[aid gunner] -2[range] -3[evade] -3[dodge] = +4, hit 4+ (92%).
Bay: To hit at Long Range: +6[gunner] +3[software] +1[aid gunner] -2[range] -3[evade] = +5, hit on 3+ (97%)
The Ships achieve 13,8 hits; kills 38% of the Fusions every round.
The Fusions achieve 465 hits; kills 39% of the Ships every round.

Draw.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Similar example builds. Small spinal vs torpedo.
Ship: 10000 dT, 1DD particle spinal, 72 laser turrets, hull 4400. GCr 7.4
Torpedo Ship: 10000 dT, 8 large & 4 med torpedo bay (3*Size) launches 264 torps/att, 60 laser turrets, hull 4400. GCr 7,6 (w 8 rounds)

10 Ships, 10 guns, kills 1296 MW torps, 44000 hull, GCr 74.
10 Torp, 2640 torps, kills 1080 MW torps, 44000 hull, GCr 76.

Spinal: To hit at Long Range: +6[gunner] +5[software] +1[aid gunner] -2[range] -3[evade] -3[dodge] = +4, hit 4+ (92%).
Bay: To hit at Long Range: +6[gunner] +3[software] +1[aid gunner] -2[range] -3[evade] = +5, hit on 3+ (97%)
Torp: To hit at Long Range: +1[smart] +3[software] -3[evade] -3[dodge] = -2, ~3 torps in each salvo misses.

The Ships achieve 9,2 hits; kills 40% of the Torp ships every round.
The Torps achieve ~1300 hits; kills 63% of the Ships every round.

Torps win. (Because of too light missile defences.) (Of course torps should be launched at longer range...)

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Basically this says that the ships need twice the missile defences...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Similar example builds. Fusion vs Fusion&Dampers.
Fusion Ship: 10000 dT, 30 med fusion bay (Long Range, Size), 70 laser turrets, hull 4400. GCr 6,9
Damper Ship: 10000 dT, 25 med fusion bay (Long Range, Size), 80 Dampers, 75 laser turrets, hull 4400. GCr 8

22 Fusions, 660 guns, kills 9240 missiles, 96800 hull, GCr 152.
19 Dampers, 475 guns, kills 8550 missiles, 83600 hull, GCr 152

Spinal: To hit at Long Range: +6[gunner] +5[software] +1[aid gunner] -2[range] -3[evade] -3[dodge] = +4, hit 4+ (92%).
Bay: To hit at Long Range: +6[gunner] +3[software] +1[aid gunner] -2[range] -3[evade] = +5, hit on 3+ (97%)
Dampers stops 28 damage from 80 attacks. Med Fusion bay does 2D*10-15 ≈ 55 damage, ~27 damage if reduced by a damper.
The Fusions needs to fire 125 bays to kill a Damper ship; kills 28% of the Dampers every round.
The Dampers achieve 461 hits; kills 26% of the Fusions every round.

Draw.

Note that Dampers only work against fusion guns, they do nothing against spinals. Dampers seems like a bad idea in fleet engagements.

 

[Chas]

Note that Dampers only work against fusion guns, they do nothing against spinals. Dampers seems like a bad idea in fleet engagements.

Nuclear missiles. That's the theory at any rate.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Note that Dampers only work against fusion guns, they do nothing against spinals. Dampers seems like a bad idea in fleet engagements.

Nuclear missiles. That's the theory at any rate.

As far as I can see 1 Damper (~28) kill around 1 nuclear missile (21 before armour), that is negligible.

 

[Chas]

Note that Dampers only work against fusion guns, they do nothing against spinals. Dampers seems like a bad idea in fleet engagements.

Nuclear missiles. That's the theory at any rate.

As far as I can see 1 Damper (~28) kill around 1 nuclear missile (21 before armour), that is negligible.

Yes. But it shouldn't be. Absolutely it shouldn't be negligible or there's no point in having dampers in the rules. That's coming back to the trimming issue and discussion in the nuclear damper. That 28 should be removing 2D off multiple missiles not eliminating a single missile, it should only be trimmed down to below armor protection... as a minimum.