RHIP? TELL IT TO THE (SPACE) MARINES!

[Xorrandor]

Why, that would be like the Army forbidding soldiers from wearing independently-purchased body armor. When would something silly like that ever happen? (Sorry if this is political, but it also seems directly applicable.)

And we aren't talking here about a brand-name over generic body armor, we're talking a few hundred pounds (?) of extra armor between the Bugs and your tender skin. If you aren't out in front, using the included extra firepower to cover your squad, I'm not seeing the leadership. And no leadership leads to no command, in the MI. (Or so I'm told.)

In game terms, priority level could probably come into it. If you're going into an assault zone, the exo's on the most capable user. (Not that we really have the resolution to determine who can handle different equipment better, but that's an argument for another day.) If you're on patrol in an area that's expected to be quiet, it might be the private's turn to train on the Marauder. They've got to learn sometime, and I haven't seen much evidence of off-the-job training in the source material. (Officer training in the book, that's about it.)

 

[Makoto]

DAWGIE, You keep omitting one important thing - unlike the real life SST Lts and senior NCOs aren't the generic fresh-out-of-officer-training greenhorns, but seasoned veterans, most of them with years of actual combat experience. Therefore it's only logical to give the best equipment and heaviest firepower to them (as they can utilise it in best and most efficient way) rather than to some less experienced troopers.
Plus comanding a squad via a commlink with full acces to each and every troopers telemetrics is much simplier than doing it the current way.

 

[Xorrandor]

DAWGIE, You keep omitting one important thing - unlike the real life SST Lts and senior NCOs aren't the generic fresh-out-of-officer-training greenhorns, but seasoned veterans, most of them with years of actual combat experience. Therefore it's only logical to give the best equipment and heaviest firepower to them (as they can utilise it in best and most efficient way) rather than to some less experienced troopers.
Plus comanding a squad via a commlink with full acces to each and every troopers telemetrics is much simplier than doing it the current way.

Sure, I guess I'll count this as another day...

So you're going to take your seasoned PA combat veteran, who can practically smell the bugs at 500m and whose Morita combat rifle might as well be a third arm, and put him in a big clunky suit with extra gee-gaws in his visual field and have him fire missiles that any private out of boot can handle? Especially Private Jones, who grew up in the Australian Reef domes, handling submersibles with controls similar to those on a Marauder...

I'm not a veteran, but it doesn't make much sense to me to take your combat infantry veterans and put them in a modern day tank crew. Why does it make so much sense to take PA veterans and throw them into unfamiliar equipment?

 

[DAWGIE]

as i read the rules, there are no MARAUDER armors made routinely available for PL#1 engagements, which is extended combat ops. is this correct?



as i read the rules, there are 1-2 MARAUDER armors available for any powersuit squad at PL#2; these can be operated by any squad sergeant, corporal, or trooper. seems to me the resources are better used by the fighting squads, and not by the independent platoon LT, or independent platoon NCOs.


also, as i read the rules, it is possible to field entire platoons of MARAUDER armored MI at PL#2. i have never had the actual toys to use for this, but it makes more sense than a powersuit platoon with the leadership wearing the most formidable armors.


to me, entire MARAUDER platoons are reasonable.


ditto for entire exo-armor platoons.



going back to PL #2 powersuit platoon TOE (three 8 bod squads) i am thinking my 24 squaddies (including SGT w/attributes, a corporal for each squad), armed 7 MORITA assault rifles w/GL and a triple thud GL, frag hand grenades, and lizard lines comes to a bit over a 1,000 pts. if i opt for 1-2 squaddie operated MARAUDERs per squad, i lose 2 powesuits and gain a hell of a lot more firepower.


the three bod platoon HQ squad (1 LT and 2 NCOs, with attributes) wearing powersuits, armed with MORITA assault rifles/GL, frag hand grenades, maybe a plasma munition each, and lizard lines ought to put me well over 1,000 pts.


this is why i am thinking of opting for the second platoon choice to be MARAUDERS or exo-armor MI troopers.


i have some PATHFINDERS with neo dogs that i have never gotten around to assembling till now, so i have never used these troops and have no idea as what to do with them till i get the PATHFINDER ARMY BOOK.


i was alos thinking that FLEET assets and drop capsules were good for beefing up points iin PL #2 and PL #3 fights. mobility and firepower.


now we come down to my LAMI troopers: i have a single platoon (3 boxes of these) and no ARMY BOOK, so i have been using them as the less than wonderful BUG fodder from SST:THE MOVIE. the only difference is that they have been fighting alongside my powersuit MI up to now.


what i have been thinking about for MI assigned to a ptrol corvette as ship's troops, is HQ squad and four powersuit squads. for those occassions when i use my platoon for PL #2 games, i am thinking that one of the MI company platoons would be a MARAUDER platoon, and that a squad of MI MARAUDER troopers would be attached to the powersuit platoon as an additional asset for the independently operating MI platoons serving as ship's troops.

DAWGIE

 

[5.56 Surgeon]

Marauder Platoons are only available at PL2. But you can but Caps in them at any lvl. The down side is that they tend to be fire magnets more then anything else.

 

[Makoto]

I'm not a veteran, but it doesn't make much sense to me to take your combat infantry veterans and put them in a modern day tank crew. Why does it make so much sense to take PA veterans and throw them into unfamiliar equipment?

Not exactly - am simply putting said veteran into some extra training and allowing him to use bigger and better Morita, plus the mortar and missiles he'll use much better than a newbee with civilian PS aquaintance (see the note about firestorm guidance systems in both TT and RPG for example), as the veteran will simply know better where to aim to get most of each shot.
And any equipment is unfamiliar at first, newbee will have to master it aswell.

DAWGIE - so think about reducing the officers to just 2 men, maybe even 1 + SICON agent to cut down the cost, and choose the traits carefully - given points are the top limit, not suggested value
Plus that "hell of a lot more firepower" is much more valuable in a fight that two or three Moritas, or even frags.

 

[Xorrandor]

Not exactly - am simply putting said veteran into some extra training and allowing him to use bigger and better Morita, plus the mortar and missiles he'll use much better than a newbee with civilian PS aquaintance (see the note about firestorm guidance systems in both TT and RPG for example), as the veteran will simply know better where to aim to get most of each shot.
And any equipment is unfamiliar at first, newbee will have to master it aswell.

So your taking your best trooper out of action for training. Keeping in mind that, while he's undergoing training on new equipment, he is not passing on his PA experience to the newbs in the platoon. Double loss. Why not train the newb with the best aptitude, and let your top PA trooper train up the rest on their standard issue equipment? As I said, I don't see much time for training out of theatre in the Bug War; if you have the resources to run long-term training cycles, my feelings might change.

In the modern military, do you issue the flamethrower to the best rifleman in the platoon? Or an LMG (or whatever acronym describes squad support weapons these days)? I would say have the best rifleman use a rifle.

 

[Makoto]

Why the need for a long course? It's a fairly short one, especially that most of the weapons (apart from the mortar) are mastered already, and important basics of powerarmour operations are grasped already aswell.
Furthermore - there are other vets to train the greenhorns, so it's not a problem too.
So - in modern military, will You keep the best rifleman with outdated M16A1 or will You jump at the first chance to re-arm him into an RPKM? I say best man use the most efficient weapons. Sure, personal preferences and aptitudes are important, but even that can be fitted into ape/exo weapon slots.

 

[Xorrandor]

So - in modern military, will You keep the best rifleman with outdated M16A1 or will You jump at the first chance to re-arm him into an RPKM?

Not sure what an RPKM is. If it's a heavy weapon of some sort, extremely unlikely. If it's an updated assault rifle, I might consider it; I'd probably have him hold onto his M16 until the entire platoon switched over, though. However long a man is going to be sub-par while training, I don't want to be down my best rifleman in the meantime. And I sure don't want him running out of ammo because everyone else is using a different weapon system.

But we aren't talking about a simple update here, anyway. We're talking about adding new (and multiple) weapon systems, moving POV a few more feet off the ground, changing how you move, changing sensor systems, changing your profile. Your instinct to dive for cover is now actively counter-productive, for instance, if you're in a Marauder. Unless you're used to looking for Marauder-sized cover. Not only that, but you can't take Marauders on patrol--they don't have the range. So now the best trooper you had is out of practice when on patrol.

I'm not saying that the best Marauder operator will never be the NCO or Lt. It just starts to strain willing suspension of disbelief when every platoon that shows up just happens to have the command crew in a Marauder. And that's ignoring the morale effects. Heck, in the book generals dropped in standard command suits, and it was a point of pride for every MI on the drop. I always thought that was a little overkill on the whole "everybody fights" thing, but in that incarnation of the Federation you sure wouldn't find Lts buttoned up in heavier armor than their men.

 

[JoseDominguez]

Take a step back from the argument everyone........

'I dear, I find it terribly unrealistic that our officers are equipped with highly mobile, fast reaction armour systems that probably include advanced coms equipment etc.... just like those command warrior IFV's the UK armed forces use'
'I agree, but I fully accept that our enemies just arrived from deep space and are now pouring out of the ass of a massive spacegoing combat cockroach'.





The marauder is a fast manaoevrable vehicle that gives the officer some decent armour, it's not a tank..... in fact, I'd assume that if you are trained in operating Cap power armour it's no different, in fact, who's to say every officer doesn't undergo marauder training as part of his basic?
Or who's to say that a vast number of weapon specialists who operate marauders in cap units don't get promoted to NCO and retain that ability?
I don't put my officers in them, I use exo's if I upgrade them, I don't like tieing in that many points in one place... but in reality, wouldn't the military want to keep the investment in training that an officer represents safe? Not forgetting the coms equipment on board a marauder. No need for a radio officer if the LT has his own full set up.

As for all of this military knowledge people have, great, but I'll defer to the opinion of the first person with first hand knowledge of interplanetary assault.
Who's to say that the MI will follow any of the conventions of modern armed forces/military history when it comes to training and organisation?Historically the Spartans are viewed as one of the best trained and fiercest forces ever to have existed, I don't see any modern armies taking on their training regime.

 

[cOwgummi]

well as far as the rpg says every trooper gets marauder training as part of his basic, only some specialise in it.

but i think command IFV's and similiar vehicles are a good real life example for what the mi is doing.

on the terms of respect, well ok, may drop if the officer sits in the background in his neat tank, but armor and weapons don't keep you from being on the front, helping you squaddies whereever and whenever you can with the awsome firepower of yours and just kick ass.
Well i'm no soldier, but i think I would respect my sarge if he saves my ass by crushing the skull of the bug who was going to eat me by blasting away the nasty alien with the sixgun of his exo, the flame of his ape or whatever neat weapon he has.

edit:
also it sounds like a good option to make sure a frontline officer keeps an overview of the battlefield. its much easier to fight on the frontline AND tactically lead your troops if you have thick armor, big weapons and especially room and enegy for a command interface and comm-rig that guarantees you always know whats going on

 

[Xorrandor]

Hey, we're just talking here. No heat intended. You have your view on how easy it is to pick up new equipment, and I have mine. Frankly, I was hoping for more information from actual military veterans, who have gone through actual equipment upgrades; I know I'm just bloviating here.

And of course even current military knowledge wouldn't necessarily apply to troops in power armor, traveling across space to kill bugs in strange environments. But I figure I've met a few people, so I have some idea of how people act; I've had to upgrade equipment at work, so I have some idea of how technology refreshes go. I'll go with that for now...

 

[DAWGIE]

LOL! please bear with me for a minute as i go down memory lane with MATTY MATTEL (the M16 rifle).


well in the bad olde days, of the RVN, we went to war with the M14 (basically a modernized, M1) rifle, which was heavy and long, but very reliable in the jungle.

soooo, of course the ARMY immediately withdrew these from service, and re-armed us with the XM16 assault rifle (known as MATTY MATTEL to us. MATTY MATTEL was the icon of a then very well known US toymaker that made plastic toy guns, and the problems were experienced were incredible! and this was not due to just the soldiers being unfamiliar with the weapon either; it was a piece of crap. so we went back to toting the M14 SLR and the M14 SAW, as well shotguns, etc.


since there was lots of 7.62mm and 5.56mm ammo around, having two differnet basic rifles in use by the troops did not cause problems
for us, but did cause problems for DOD and DOA, so the M14s were forcibly withdrawn from first line combat units and re-assigned to non infantry folks. backed up with the ominous threat of courts-martial or company punishment for offenders. it really sucked.


i still dislike M16s to this day, and would not carry one if there was something more reliable available along with a ready ammo supply for same.


back to SST!

true in the MGP universe, there are not greenhorn officers and senior NCOs serving in MI units OUT THERE (at least for powersuit troopers: do not have a clue about the official version of LAMI troopers and leadership)!

but, every powersuit trooper recieves training in M8 and M9 armors as well the basic powersuit.

i have never used a SICON esper, as i do not own one.

because of my limited selection of MI forces, i tend to spend points in order to meet required force level for a PL.

this one of the reasons i am eagerly looking forward to the PATHFINDER ARMY BOOK, so i can finally use my PATHFINDER squad and some neo-dogs!


off topic but interesting video game comment from me:

i just recently finished playing RED FACTION II for the PS2, and among the highlights of this game (for me) was when MINIME was allowed to use BATTLE ARMOR to accomplish missions! this really rocked! the result (except for the lack jumping ability) provided me with a very nice APE cum CHICKENHAWK experience! walking, armored mega death with a variety of rotary barrel cannons, rocket and flame launchers, and one hell of a lot of armor between MINIME and all of that nastiness being directed at MINIME by the bad guys!

excellent MARAUDER simulation!

well got to trot for now! thanks for the excellent back and forth!


DAWGIE

 

[JoseDominguez]

pathfinders are very good, highly specialised and not able to use marauders because of it.... I think the fluff holds up prett well. Caps are multi purpose and well trained, they get access to a range of equipment but not the super specialised stuff like pathfinder armour with it's 12" reaction sensors or shredder cannons, pathfinders are specialised, they get some really cool kit including reaver heat, but they don't get the normal heavy stuff like marauders etc..
Look at the command structure of the MI compared to a modern military force... officers are there for leadership and coordination, not to run into combat and shred the opposition with powerswords and powerfists...... that would be ridiculous
Marauders for officers makes a lot of sense, comms, support, mobility and a bit of protection. Particularly in a force who's main enemy lacks long range fire power. A marauder against a skinny army is a fire magnet. A marauder against a bug army means you can avoid combat but survive for a round if you really have to. A fire magnet is dangerous only when the opposition can shoot at you, and face it. plasma is lethal no matter what.

Can anyone who's got experience of fighting large armies of hive minded genetically modified intelligent bugs from outer space remember how thet organised things?