I'm new here so forgive me if I'm covering old ground, but given the current publishing situation for DW, I though this might be an appropriate forum to discuss what sort of things a "revised" edition of DW might incorporate, assuming the system was kept at least somewhat similar ? There's alot of discussion around whether DW would be better off migrating to another system entirely, but could it be "modernized" and so improved without destroying it?
I thought I'd share some thoughts on the subject in the hope I can fire some enthusiasm (and I hope this isn't annoying).
The DW system contains a number of fantastic ideas, and a revamp of the structure in a genuine 2nd edition could improve it remarkably. I’m something of an armchair designer (I’ve written a couple of [bad] d20 supplements myself, but who hasn’t?) and I’m quite struck by the number of innovations and bells-and-whistles the DW core system had despite being from the mid-80s:
*Magic points – a great idea that should have been industry standard, never quite fully absorbed by D&D.
*Spell Expiry rolls –eliminating need to track remaining spell durations. The idea of a duration roll has now been copied by 4th edition D&D, but I find DW’s implemention much more palatable.
*Psychic Fatigue –a very innovative system (I love Mystics).
*primary and secondary modifiers for attribute scores. The concept was never fully named or developed (and should be), but unlike D&D the attribute chart clearly distinguishes between attributes that are a strong influence on a game mechanic (e.g. about +1/ 3 points), and attributes giving only a minor benefit (about +1/ 5).
*spell failure for armour as seen in 3rd Ed. D&D, before its time.
*defense splitting. A great mechanic that could be developed further – splitting defense replaces a whole pile of miniature positioning annoyances in 3e/4e D&D to determine “flanking”. Potentially, could be used to run sneak attack/backstab type mechanics – not enough defense applied against an Assassin allows them to backstab.
*armour bypass rolls. A fantastic mechanic. Compare say, D&D’s substandard armour-as-extra-dodge system, or Runequest damage absorbtion –3rd edition D&D designer Jonathan Tweet’s comments on RQ may be interesting and are here (as well as his comments on roll under mechanics, though he misses the speed benefit of roll-under) : http://www.jonathantweet.com/jotgamerunequest.html
IMHO Armour bypass has huge development potential –firstly you can have a difference between weapons with great armour penetration but less damage (Mace) and better damage but worse penetration (sword) – again instead of having the only difference be how much damage a weapon does. In one game we ran the GM invented quite a large list of multiheaded weapons (with the Trident in Power of Darkness for inspiration) – one hit roll, then make multiple bypass rolls to see how many of the ‘heads’ of your triple-flail or African Throwing Knife or cat o’ 9 tails do damage. It also makes it easy to differentiate between attacks that only hit and those that break armour – letting the GM better adjudicate effects like trip attempts or magical electricity weapons that deal shock damage through metal armour.
*I also quite like the vision types (panoptical, gloomsight, elfsight, etc) – haven’t seen anything quite like this in any other game. Would be great if the daylight perception penalty applied to rolls like the roll to avoid Dazzle as well.
*The d20 roll under mechanic is really fast – particularly where you have a lot of dice to roll (DWs core mechanic is actually better for high-level games than D&D is - if 17 archers take on a giant, I can roll 17 dice, count the hits and multiply by the base arrow damage MUCH faster than I could if I had to add a different bonus to each roll, and then roll damage).
As far as my actual complaints with the system go, it needs a skill system, and it would be good to have a single unified mechanic for most tasks (I’d have gone with d20, rather than 2d10 –though probably Psychic Fatigue should use a bell-curve roll of some kind, since an increase in power level represents an exponentially higher amount of power, and so should have an exponentially higher chance of failure). Fright checks and monster “grapple rolls” should have well-defined rules since these are commonplace – perhaps a Bravery score for characters? Combat mechanics should probably be expanded to include disarms, trips, etc. – possibly a hit location/called shot system would add more depth to fixed damage.
Given that perhaps a good 10% or 20% of the monsters want to eat your soul, there should be some detailed soul-eating rules. Perhaps “Magical Attack” could be used more generally for rolls where a Sorcerer attempts an unusual stunt with a spell – call it “Magical Prowess?”. I’d be tempted to add in armour penalty rules (e.g. armour factor applies as a penalty to Reflex checks in some circumstances), and revised armour stacking rules for dealing with situations like Ogres putting on armour or multiple armour layers.
The game also needs some way to keep the Magic-using professions under control – if most of the classes use magic, its quite likely someone will play a magic user: even if that wasn’t the case, a character you roll up randomly is about as likely to be good at Magic (high Psychic Talent) as they are at Fighting (high Strength)...the last time I wanted to play a Knight I rolled up a 17 Psychic Talent and decided to go with Mystic instead. Perhaps more martial Professions in the lists would help (as would higher attribute prerequisites for spellcasters, or alternative character generation methods letting the player switch around scores – a simple matter) and some high level spells likely need to be toned down as they can inflict incredible amounts of damage relative to character HP.
Having Psychic Talent modify damage of spells, and Int modify Magical Attack, could differentiate between wizards who use subtle magicks such as illusions or charms, and those who blast foes with raw power, without adding an additional class.
Perhaps “armour factor” could have a magical equivalent for monsters, requiring a roll to bypass and with some spells being more likely to be effective.
So, curious as to whether other people have house rules/thoughts...
I thought I'd share some thoughts on the subject in the hope I can fire some enthusiasm (and I hope this isn't annoying).
The DW system contains a number of fantastic ideas, and a revamp of the structure in a genuine 2nd edition could improve it remarkably. I’m something of an armchair designer (I’ve written a couple of [bad] d20 supplements myself, but who hasn’t?) and I’m quite struck by the number of innovations and bells-and-whistles the DW core system had despite being from the mid-80s:
*Magic points – a great idea that should have been industry standard, never quite fully absorbed by D&D.
*Spell Expiry rolls –eliminating need to track remaining spell durations. The idea of a duration roll has now been copied by 4th edition D&D, but I find DW’s implemention much more palatable.
*Psychic Fatigue –a very innovative system (I love Mystics).
*primary and secondary modifiers for attribute scores. The concept was never fully named or developed (and should be), but unlike D&D the attribute chart clearly distinguishes between attributes that are a strong influence on a game mechanic (e.g. about +1/ 3 points), and attributes giving only a minor benefit (about +1/ 5).
*spell failure for armour as seen in 3rd Ed. D&D, before its time.
*defense splitting. A great mechanic that could be developed further – splitting defense replaces a whole pile of miniature positioning annoyances in 3e/4e D&D to determine “flanking”. Potentially, could be used to run sneak attack/backstab type mechanics – not enough defense applied against an Assassin allows them to backstab.
*armour bypass rolls. A fantastic mechanic. Compare say, D&D’s substandard armour-as-extra-dodge system, or Runequest damage absorbtion –3rd edition D&D designer Jonathan Tweet’s comments on RQ may be interesting and are here (as well as his comments on roll under mechanics, though he misses the speed benefit of roll-under) : http://www.jonathantweet.com/jotgamerunequest.html
IMHO Armour bypass has huge development potential –firstly you can have a difference between weapons with great armour penetration but less damage (Mace) and better damage but worse penetration (sword) – again instead of having the only difference be how much damage a weapon does. In one game we ran the GM invented quite a large list of multiheaded weapons (with the Trident in Power of Darkness for inspiration) – one hit roll, then make multiple bypass rolls to see how many of the ‘heads’ of your triple-flail or African Throwing Knife or cat o’ 9 tails do damage. It also makes it easy to differentiate between attacks that only hit and those that break armour – letting the GM better adjudicate effects like trip attempts or magical electricity weapons that deal shock damage through metal armour.
*I also quite like the vision types (panoptical, gloomsight, elfsight, etc) – haven’t seen anything quite like this in any other game. Would be great if the daylight perception penalty applied to rolls like the roll to avoid Dazzle as well.
*The d20 roll under mechanic is really fast – particularly where you have a lot of dice to roll (DWs core mechanic is actually better for high-level games than D&D is - if 17 archers take on a giant, I can roll 17 dice, count the hits and multiply by the base arrow damage MUCH faster than I could if I had to add a different bonus to each roll, and then roll damage).
As far as my actual complaints with the system go, it needs a skill system, and it would be good to have a single unified mechanic for most tasks (I’d have gone with d20, rather than 2d10 –though probably Psychic Fatigue should use a bell-curve roll of some kind, since an increase in power level represents an exponentially higher amount of power, and so should have an exponentially higher chance of failure). Fright checks and monster “grapple rolls” should have well-defined rules since these are commonplace – perhaps a Bravery score for characters? Combat mechanics should probably be expanded to include disarms, trips, etc. – possibly a hit location/called shot system would add more depth to fixed damage.
Given that perhaps a good 10% or 20% of the monsters want to eat your soul, there should be some detailed soul-eating rules. Perhaps “Magical Attack” could be used more generally for rolls where a Sorcerer attempts an unusual stunt with a spell – call it “Magical Prowess?”. I’d be tempted to add in armour penalty rules (e.g. armour factor applies as a penalty to Reflex checks in some circumstances), and revised armour stacking rules for dealing with situations like Ogres putting on armour or multiple armour layers.
The game also needs some way to keep the Magic-using professions under control – if most of the classes use magic, its quite likely someone will play a magic user: even if that wasn’t the case, a character you roll up randomly is about as likely to be good at Magic (high Psychic Talent) as they are at Fighting (high Strength)...the last time I wanted to play a Knight I rolled up a 17 Psychic Talent and decided to go with Mystic instead. Perhaps more martial Professions in the lists would help (as would higher attribute prerequisites for spellcasters, or alternative character generation methods letting the player switch around scores – a simple matter) and some high level spells likely need to be toned down as they can inflict incredible amounts of damage relative to character HP.
Having Psychic Talent modify damage of spells, and Int modify Magical Attack, could differentiate between wizards who use subtle magicks such as illusions or charms, and those who blast foes with raw power, without adding an additional class.
Perhaps “armour factor” could have a magical equivalent for monsters, requiring a roll to bypass and with some spells being more likely to be effective.
So, curious as to whether other people have house rules/thoughts...
I could see the GURPS coming through! I've always been "GURPS curious" but don't know anyone in the local area who plays it, though I sort of know a few people online who do.
