Reckless Attack variants

Clovenhoof

Mongoose
IIRC, the official (MGP, there may be others) version of Reckless Attack allows you to trade -X Defense for +X Damage.
Another variant I've seen allows trading -X Defense for +X Attack (which in turn can be converted to damage via Power Attack), limited to -/+5, so it's analogous to Combat Expertise.

Which version - if any - do you use in your game, and what are your experiences with it?

As I see it, the AC-for-Attack option makes the feat both more versatile and more limited. You can get insane Attack values, enabling you to hit stuff you're not supposed to hit at your level.
(For this reason mainly I think this version is broken -- keep in mind how in D20 the ways to boost Attack are very limited compared to virtually any other stat. This is intentional.)

On the other hand, AC-for-Attack is more limited at the same time because you still need to use PA to convert AC to Damage, and thus are limited by your BAB. So it doesn't actually help your damage output. With the standard rule, you can max out your PA _and_ put in Reckless Attack on top of it, so you can get really insane damage outputs very early in the game.

Also, unless I'm missing anything, you can use Reckless Attack as written with Light Weapons. Hurray for the DualWielder!
 
We trade Defence for Damage but nobody has ever used it.

Trading Defence for Attack seems to me to be broken as you suggest and also rather contrary to the idea, which to me is that you are launching a wild swing which will be devastating if it hits but leaves you wide open to a riposte.

I've never been clear why Power Attack does not follow this line rather than its Attack for Damage model or indeed why if PA requires a Feat, this does not too/instead.
 
Well, you could ask the same question for _any_ feat that enables a maneuver that you cannot use without. Of course it would be nice to get all those maneuvers for free, but OTOH it is a key concept of the D20 system that "it don't mean a thing if you ain't paid for that swing".
 
personnaly I put the -5/+5 penality.

As for power attack I use the same rule for dual wield: ad 1.5 for two-hand and 0.5 for off hand weapon.

In my opinion reckless attack is worse than PA since it directly increase your average damage output (power attack don't actually increase your damage output but let you trigger MD and break armor, reckless attack do both).
 
To be clear, I meant that given PA is a feat, RA should be too. Not that PA should be a manoeuver.

And that PA should probably use the RA model of trading the more precious Defence for Damage rather than Attack.
 
Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, RA is a Feat with Prereqs Str 15+, PA.
It should also be limited by your base Defense, i.e. you can't decrease your Defense below 10.

(power attack don't actually increase your damage output but let you trigger MD and break armor, reckless attack do both)

That actually depends on a lot of factors. Depending on your BAB, chosen PA, target Defense and DR, Power Attack can indeed increase your average damage output. For typical values, average damage peaks at PA-3 and drops again for higher PAs.
 
My mistake, I had it in my head it was a manoeuver.

I certainly agree it shouldn't lower Defence below 10. As I say, I rather prefer its mechanic to that of Power Attack to simulate PA. I'm not really certain why it has the str requirement as surely recklessness is not really determined by strength in the way power is. I suppose the name isn't really important though, it's the effect.
 
My guess is the Str requirement isn't there for simulationist reasons but for game balance reasons. To prevent weakish defense-optimized chars inflicting a lot of damage.

Apart from that, I guess you could forward the motion in your group to replace the PA mechanic with the RA mechanic. ^^
 
I think all of the -X/+X feats are broken to varying degress (Reckless, Power Attack, Combat Expertise.) Power Attack just flat out gives too large a benefit on 2 handers and needs to be reigned in no matter what, but even at one-to-one it is still over the top.

The big two reasons for this are the critical rules and the massive damage rules. Conan should do what 4E DnD did which is to drop massive damage altogether, and to change critical hits into simply doing maximum damage instead of double.

Massive damage breaks quickly when players can consistently do more than 20 damage (which is VERY easy with power attack + reckless attack) things start falling over dead a lot, and that penalty to AC doesn't mean much when you're the only one left standing or you've spring attacked! Also as a DM it's hard challenging players when they're running around with 100+ HPs so your opponents need to hit them hard, but as soon as you hit for more than 20 they start falling over unconscious randomly and losing fate points!

Critical hits are pretty vicious just doing max damage, but the fact that power attack and reckless attack damage doubles on it is borked (not to mention you're also effectively getting 3x STR on a 2-hander) and leads to HUGE blows that are guaranteed kills. Just let someone take the Explosive Power feat and watch opponents explode into bloody chunks every round. Alternately a scimitar + Improved Critical + Reckless Attack means gobs and gobs of damage.
 
Well most of those point had already been discussed. For my part I'll already used the page 8 Rule that Rule-them-all: If there is something you don't like then just change it. You should obviously do the same.
 
While true that the problems of Power Attack, Sneak Attack, 2h fighting, high Strength, and many others have been beaten to death, I do find it interesting that someone brought up Combat Expertise. And, there is likely more to be said on house rules and GM responses to broken mechanics.

I don't know how much of a problem Combat Expertise is. It's not going to make much of a difference to a single threat, as threat will have some absurd attack bonus and hit anyway, while on the flip side the single threat's DV may be high enough that taking an attack penalty has some meaningful disadvantage. It is huge when being swarmed.

I have a hard time looking at 4e for inspiration. Sure, it obsesses over balance, but playing it in my experience is like playing a boardgame rather than a role-playing game. And, combat in 4e (i.e. everything in 4e) is routinely deadly dull.

The problem with going in and changing anything is that it won't necessarily fix the problem and often has unintended consequences. I'm not sure Conan d20 combat is fixable in the way I want it fixed. I like having things risk being taken out in one shot. I feel like combat is reasonably quick and not overly dice-rolling heavy. As a player, playing pretty close to RAW doesn't bother me a lot except that a well-built combat character and any other character are playing two different games when combat breaks out.

OTOH, as a GM, I found it to be really painful coming up with appropriate challenges. Coming up with things to fight that are pretty much dead as soon as a combat PC gets an attack off is not interesting and not fun. It's funny how it's just like the HeroQuest boardgame (something I've played a lot) in my mind from a Zargon perspective. You throw things out you know are going to die fast, but every once in a while they do something and the attrition effect builds and builds until the party may just not be able to continue. Well, that may be how to get a boardgame to balance, but it doesn't enthrall me as a GM. I want drama. I want parties to feel pressure. But, I don't want them to be devastated by anything less than a climactic battle.

In one session of guest GMing, I threw stuff at the party that was insanely hard to one-shot or grind down through straight up fighting and that could force MDSs. The party ran away and the adventure was pretty much over at that point as the party wasn't interested enough in trying to come up with either a better battle plan or a solution that involved dealing with the enemy without fighting it. As you all can imagine, that was hardly entertaining.

So, the first step in changing rules is figuring out how as a playgroup we want combat to work. When I look at Conan, I see it failing in terms of variance of "effective damage output" depending upon whether you built a good combat character or didn't, failing in terms of party recovery, failing in terms of tending to be either repetitive (superstrategies, like nuking the world with 2h PA+, or one shot anything with SA) or clunky (grappling).

There are tons of ideas for fixing the EDO problem. I still have an interest in a mechanic where you do damage based on level as I see that helping to maintain some level of parity between characters as they advance and between the characters and their foes. But, in the absence of other changes, that just means combat becomes outrageously lethal. So, where do you scaleback elsewhere? Getting rid of MD does scaleback, but now combat becomes awfully D&Desque with round after round of attrition - it becomes a grind. Grind to me != drama.

Improving recovery is easy, in one thread, there's talk of giving back half HP after every battle. While this may prove to be necessary to have things really work the way playgroups envision them, it has its own consequences and may not end up balancing depending upon what other changes are made.

As a player, I've gotten to the point where pretty much I don't care anymore. I see too many corrections needed to where the whole game ends up being rewritten, which isn't necessary as combat isn't so dominant in our gaming that it has to be perfected. Combat isn't completely broken, it's just kind of broken, and that's okay. When I design characters in the future, I'll know better what works and either build more capable combat characters or just resign the character to trying to survive combat as a spearchucker.

As a GM, I would struggle with not trying to fix the most egregious crap that makes interesting challenges challenging. My 3.5 D&D group changed Power Attack and additional damage for wielding a weapon 2h before it ever began because the group knew that there was something wonky in the rules (also changed things like how Knowledge skills worked as D&D 3.5 is FUed up with how few skill ranks you get). But, if the players don't care enough - ours don't, then why go to all that trouble. Takes time away from crafting adventures and NPCs and making good stories.
 
Actually when you look at it, it's difficult to make combat interesting and a great experience in most game systems, at least most of those I know. Basically, most systems fall into one of two categories: either the system forces slow and tedious attrition, or the system allows to build so insanely deadly fighters that any encounter comes down to a series of one-hits.

(For instance, one of my best-hated systems, The Dark Eye, is the epitome of attrition: it has a conglomeration of active defense, high hit points, low weapon damage and damage-reducing armour. Playing a 5-on-5 fight by the rules might easily take a full night.)

Also, on another axis, within any one system you can probably find optimal strategies that make you nigh-invincible, and in the converse disregarding these might make you a sitting duck. Here I find D&D (3) to be an extreme example, where any one encounter can be impossible to overcome without the exactly right preparation, but with this preparation, it goes down so fast it never knows what hit it.

One system with which I have made very good experiences - but to say it up front, hardly suitable for Sword & Sorcery - is Shadowrun 3. In SR3, a good GM can throw challenges (i.e. combat encounters) at any group that will really make you sweat. I was so lucky to have such a GM. Even though we played very high-powered characters, he managed to scale the encounters so well that pretty much everyone was on their last legs at the end of the session.
The key point here is, I think, the way how SR has a kind of "death spiral" damage system, i.e. the more damage you take, the more difficult it becomes to avoid further damage. So you need to avoid taking any damage at all costs, because even one box (i.e. a "Light Wound") increases all your target numbers so every task becomes considerably more difficult. A "Medium Wound" doesn't threaten your life directly but aggravates your target numbers so much that you're reduced to maybe 30% efficiency, go figure.
So that way, our GM managed to really make us sweat, without running the risk of accidentally killing off. Actually nobody ever died, but sometimes it felt really close, while in fact the GM was in full control of the situation. The actual point was that the players/characters always kept track of their condition and constantly had to reassess the odds: press on or abort?

This is of course vastly different from D20 combat, where it doesn't really make a difference whether you have 120HP or 1HP left, as long as you don't get hit again. Also, in D20 combat, you'll often find that an opponent either can't seriously touch you at all, or eats through your HP so fast you never get the chance to abort and try a different approach.

So, long story short, of those systems I have tried in my life, SR3 actually made for the most interesting battles and the highest suspense in combat.
 
Dark eye lol that the first RPG i ve played bring back some memories

The only thing about Combat expertise is that it slow down combat wich is imho a bad thing. you kill slower but are harder to kill. It become pretty good against multiples weak ennemies tough (PA is the opposite).

In any case there s the ultimate rule: The one-rule to rule them all mouhahhahah. I don t hesitate to add ad hoc one-shot rule when appropriate. So you want your big bad ass villain to survive the sneak attack onslaugt? he could get an insight bonus to initiative to beat the rogue or have uncanny dodge/reflexive parry for some obscure reason. Or darkness prevent you to strike with deadly accuracy!
 
As a GM, it's your responsibility to think about your NPCs and their abilities _before_ confronting the PCs with them. I consider it extremely bad style to outright ignore official rules because they don't suit you at one particular scene. The players also have to stick to the rules and build their characters accordingly. Some put a lot of thought into it, and maybe spend feats or levels to enable them to do something particular, which you as GM would simply wipe away on a whim.

I've always said that while a GM does have the final word on any rule, he needs to announce any major changes to the game world _before_ the game starts, or otherwise give the players a chance to adapt.
For example: in Conan, sorcerers need free hands to cast spells (with some leeway for daggers or staffs maybe) and suffer spell failure chance from armour. That's an integral part of the game world. You can't have an alleged mercenary in full armour with sword and shield suddenly start flinging spells out of the blue.

As for your example: if you want your villain to survive, that's fine, and you don't even have to cheat for that. True, give him Reflexive Parry and he can't be sneak-attacked flat-footed. But it doesn't have to be an "obscure reason". In the worst case, give him a Fate Point to spend and be Left for Dead just as a PC might. For a major recurring villain, that's fair game.

The GM has no more right to say that his NPC is immune to sneak attacks just because he doesn't want him to be killed, than the Thief player has the right to say he has a Dodge Defense of 49 because he doesn't want to be hit.
 
ah shadowrun 3ed. had some fun playing that game, still do play it occasionally whenever someone comes up with an adventure but we have mainly dropped it for dark heresy. i think the thing with sr3 is that aslong as your character is atleast moderately prepared for trouble and is ready to dish out violence at any moment then you should be able to get through anything with a little creative thinking. the death spiral can be annoying sometimes as well as a huge bonus, can really turn a hard fight into a near impossible if something goes horribly wrong in the opening stages.
 
You see that is the problem why we will never agree on anything. You see the rule as a block of granit wich cannot be moved by earth and sky, while I see it as a tool to help me run a fun session.

There is NOTHING wrong with introducing plot twist along an adventure. And the same goes for the players too. If a player really want to break a door but he is not strong enough I could say that if he spent half of his HP he temporarly become strong enough to break the door. Don't forget Villain get fate point too so he could realisticly use a fate point to boost his initiative or use an uncanny dodge?

"Some put a lot of thought into it, and maybe spend feats or levels to enable them to do something particular, which you as GM would simply wipe away on a whim."

This to me is totally irrevelant. A good RPG player don't really care for it, he care more for his character history and background than his level or feat or whatever. He will be more interested in the scene than the rule. When you're playing group become obssessed by the rules your not RPGing anymore. It become a war between the GM and the Players on who is right and it can become excessivly boring and totally kill the ambiance. I've played enough of those kind of game when I was 12 years old.

"As a GM, it's your responsibility to think about your NPCs and their abilities _before_ confronting the PCs with them. I consider it extremely bad style to outright ignore official rules because they don't suit you at one particular scene."

That also GM responsability to make thing interesting an adapt to the situation. As you can't planify with an 100% certitude what will be the players action before the encouter. Also sometime you may end up that one of your player do not show up, or a guest player show. So what do you do? You let your villain destroy the party (boring) or let the villain get crushed by the party (also boring)? So this is clearly irrevelant as well.
 
You see that is the problem why we will never agree on anything. You see the rule as a block of granit wich cannot be moved by earth and sky, while I see it as a tool to help me run a fun session.

There is NOTHING wrong with introducing plot twist along an adventure. And the same goes for the players too. If a player really want to break a door but he is not strong enough I could say that if he spent half of his HP he temporarly become strong enough to break the door. Don't forget Villain get fate point too so he could realisticly use a fate point to boost his initiative or use an uncanny dodge?

"Some put a lot of thought into it, and maybe spend feats or levels to enable them to do something particular, which you as GM would simply wipe away on a whim."

This to me is totally irrevelant. A good RPG player don't really care for it, he care more for his character history and background than his level or feat or whatever. He will be more interested in the scene than the rule. When you're playing group become obssessed by the rules your not RPGing anymore. It become a war between the GM and the Players on who is right and it can become excessivly boring and totally kill the ambiance. I've played enough of those kind of game when I was 12 years old.

"As a GM, it's your responsibility to think about your NPCs and their abilities _before_ confronting the PCs with them. I consider it extremely bad style to outright ignore official rules because they don't suit you at one particular scene."

That also GM responsability to make thing interesting an adapt to the situation. As you can't planify with an 100% certitude what will be the players action before the encouter. Also sometime you may end up that one of your player do not show up, or a guest player show. So what do you do? You let your villain destroy the party (boring) or let the villain get crushed by the party (also boring)? So this is clearly irrevelant as well.
 
The problem is that some GMs fall into the trap of letting the rules slide rather more often than not whenever anything happens to upset their plan of how the session should go.

Sure, the players will likely never know that you addd Uncanny Dodge and Menacing Aura to your main npc and boosted his Cha by 4 so he wouldn't be killed before the final scene. And sometimes that's okay. But it can be very frustrating for players to be faced with a deus ex machina every time they get lucky or come up with some clever scheme to defeat the baddy earlier than the GM feels is right.

And Clovenhoof's right, if the GM changes his npcs because otherwise a lucky dice roll would do for them then he is in fact cheating. It is only justifiable if the story really would be better for his survival at that point. And the players should still surely be allowed some success - the allocation of fate points to key npcs as Clovenhoof suggests is a good way for the GM to stick to the rules while keeping long term npcs in play.

If the GM inclines to ignore the rules too often, or fudge things too much then the game can begin to feel merely the vehicle for the GM to dictate what happens. Rather than a game.

I'm not saying the above applies to you Treeplanter, and I do see where your coming from. But I also see what Clovenhoof means. And I tend to agree that it is far better, for the overwhelming majority of the time, for a GM to work within the rules than to arbitrarily decide to abandon the rules based on his subjective opinion of what will make a better story (I mean what if the players disagree?)
 
We're getting into the field of RPG theory here again. There are different styles of RP. To classify any one style, you need to assess what the roles and responsibilities of GM and players are, and what they want to achieve.

* Do the players want to be confronted with challenges that they can/have to overcome? Then the GM is the provider of those challenges. It is crucial that everybody sticks to the rules. The whole group may give the GM authority to change the rules by himself ("Oldschool"), or insist that any rule changes have to be sanctioned by th group (or a majority of it). In either case any changes have to be announced _before_ they take effect in the game.
The GM's job is also to be fair and impartial, and not strive to screw the players over. And if the players come up with a better plan than he imagined and his plans are toppled, well then the PCs have done a good job and the GM can try to make it harder next time.

* Or do you all gather to tell a story together? Then all rules aren't as important as whatever advances or improves the story. But then the GM only assumes the role of a narrator, and does not have god-like privileges. All players - including the GM - have equal rights to alter the world for their storytelling needs. This is indeed a case where the GM can rule that his Villain cannot be backstabbed, but the Thief player also has the right to let his Thief dodge any counterattack.
(Game systems supporting this playing style often work with "Stakes", i.e. you simply buy your successes out of a ressource pool, or you can actually buy the "privilege of narration" and become the Narrator for a particular scene.)

* Or is the GM the only narrator, and he can change the world in any way he wants in order to shape his story the way he planned? Well, what do you need the players for then? Why not save all that trouble with unruly players having strange ideas killing your delightful plot? All you do is invite some friends over to listen to a story you made up, and each friend gets to name a character in the story. That's pretty much the only influence the "players" have in such games.
(Again, this is typical for official Dark Eye campaigns. The outcome of every scene is fixed before you even start playing, and the PCs are usually reduced to running errands for great important NPCs and get to watch cutscenes involving major villains without the slightest theoretical chance of intervention. And no, I do not exaggerate.)

This list is by no means exhaustive, just a few examples of more or less common RPG styles.
 
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