Real data on star sytems

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GypsyComet said:
If you adjust the setting to account for what we have seen in exoplanets to date, the shirtsleeve worlds drop to a handful per sector, if that.

Not at all per the current data. Earth sized planets are EXTREMELY tough to spot even as close as a couple light years. It would take years of constant observation, using current tech, to survey out to even 6-7 light years. Your statement has no basis in fact. For all we know from observation, Earth type shirt sleeve planets could be FAR more prevalent than we imagine.
 
Sid

Why do you want to base your system contents on what we currently know?

Why not just create tables based on how many worlds of what ever type you want?
 
GypsyComet said:
Prime_Evil said:
You don't think that it is possible to create a setting that advances at roughly the same rate as the SF genre itself?

That isn't Real Life? No, not really. Any SF setting depends on interpretation of the available technology and environment. That's what SF is about. As soon as that interpretation hits paper, you've locked those technological and environmental assumptions in place.

2300AD depends on a particular FTL technology and the arrangement of local stars to hang its setting on. Recent Astronomy discoveries change the arrangement of local stars, by adding a potentially endless and ubiquitous array of brown Dwarf stars and rogue planets between visible stars, that blows away the setting's assumption of Arms that intermix (and CAN intermix) only at or near Earth. The setting ceases to work, and in fact would never have worked. You can't simply "discover" Brown Dwarf stars halfway through the timeline since we're already finding them now, 300 years prior.

The Third Imperium depends on classic SF understanding of planetology and a "common biosphere" assumption. If you adjust the setting to account for what we have seen in exoplanets to date, the shirtsleeve worlds drop to a handful per sector, if that. Comprehensible alien life vanishes. Adventures go almost entirely indoors since most colonies are on airless rockballs. There are no friendly moons of gas giants, and nearly any gas giant is trying to kill you during a fuel skim in ways that make Jupiter look lazy. The entirety of the Three Imperiums' history becomes quite different.

This is why I generally support the updates that strengthen the settings (like removing most of the Dwarf stars from the Primary positions, stripping the tiny rockballs of their improbably air, etc) but really have no use for the updates that invalidate 35 years of work. If you are going to do that, go play in your own sandbox instead. Examine the technology and environmental limits anew, and come up with a setting that matches them.
Classic Traveller is on a 2-D map anyway, that is not realistic. If you convert to a 3-D map and use realistic World generation then the percentage of shirt sleeve worlds decreases, but the total number of worlds increases! For example, the Third Imperium contains 11,000 worlds on a 2-D maps, what if it was on a 3-D Map? The Milky Way Galaxy is about 1000 parsecs thick in our region A region of space in a cube 10 parsecs on a side might contain 100 star systems. A 1000 parsec cube would contain 100 million stars! No way we could map all of those, but we could map the important ones with 5, 6 and 8 atmospheres So we make a 2-D map of a 1000 parsec cube of space, Each square has a number in it ranging from +500 to -500 and that is the Z-axis coordinate for each important star system, then use the classic Traveler World generation sequence for determining the mainworld. There would be a 50% chance of their being an important world in each square in the map, therefore map would contain 500,000 star systems with important mainworld in it out of a total of 100 million star systems!, that would be 0.5%, is that small enough? if there is a 5% chance(1 in 20) of a main world in each square then you would have 50,000 star systems on the map, and that would be 0.05% of the total star population. One other problem, on a map 1000 centimeters square, it would be multiple sheets of paper 10 meters square in total. Lets say we divide the map up into sectors 100 parsecs on a side, there would be 100 sectors, and each sector would be 100 parsecs by 100 parsecs by 1000 parsecs and be a sheet of paper 1 meter on a side for 1 cm per parsec, Each sector would be divided up into 100 subsectors each one 10 parsecs by 10 parsecs by 1000 parsecs, a subsector would contain on average 20 star systems, enough to deal with on a sheet of paper. since each star system could be + or - 500 parsecs the average separation between star systems along the z-axis would be 50 parsecs, that would be 25 Jump-2s using standard Traveller rules since the Jump drive takes about 5 days to make each jump, that would mean a 125 day travel time at least with 25 visits to gas giants in various star systems to refuel I think for this we'd have to change how a Jump Drive works What if we made the Jump Drive instantaneous? We'd still need to visit those gas giants for refueling, and if it had the same fuel requirements and assuming 8 hours for each visit and 8 hours for the crew to get some sleep, 2 gas giants are visited per day, so it would be 12.5 days of travel from one star system to the next, not too bad. Could you live with that?
 
hiro said:
Why do you want to base your system contents on what we currently know?

Why not just create tables based on how many worlds of what ever type you want?

Because to people who care, it grates, to people who don't care, it won't grate if more accurate. Ergo, more potential people who will play. Marketing 100.


As to NOT basing on Earth as some have questioned, you ALSO get the bonus of avoiding offending the terminally politically correct player when they don't see African pigmies being represented all over the galactic arm in the future.
 
sideranautae said:
GypsyComet said:
If you adjust the setting to account for what we have seen in exoplanets to date, the shirtsleeve worlds drop to a handful per sector, if that.

Not at all per the current data. Earth sized planets are EXTREMELY tough to spot even as close as a couple light years. It would take years of constant observation, using current tech, to survey out to even 6-7 light years. Your statement has no basis in fact. For all we know from observation, Earth type shirt sleeve planets could be FAR more prevalent than we imagine.

Could be, sure, but re-read what I said. "Seen TO DATE". If you want to assume that the shirtsleeve worlds are indeed more common than we are finding, then you are, in fact, making the same assumption the Traveller designers did 35 years ago, based on the SF of their inspiration. There is nothing wrong with that, but trotting out the old SF Common Biosphere assumption while claiming to be more accurately following current astronomy is just going to get you laughed at.

Being proven right in twenty years doesn't make you prophetic or give you a reputation for accuracy; it means you got lucky.

That this idea causes extreme consternation amongst most Trav fans responding tells me, that from a Mktg standpoint, it is the right direction..

Because annoying the customer base has been working so well for others.
 
GypsyComet said:
Could be, sure, but re-read what I said. "Seen TO DATE". If you want to assume s.

Well, since we lack the tech to actually SEE them beyond a LY or so, but we CAN infer them infinitely better than when Trav was written.(back then there was ZERO data to go on.) Thus we have much more data to base estimations on.

So, what IS your point?
 
sideranautae said:
GypsyComet said:
Could be, sure, but re-read what I said. "Seen TO DATE". If you want to assume s.

Well, since we lack the tech to actually SEE them beyond a LY or so, but we CAN infer them infinitely better than when Trav was written.(back then there was ZERO data to go on.) Thus we have much more data to base estimations on.

So, what IS your point?

Heh. I recognize that tone. Couldn't stay away, eh?

My point: Stop denying that you are making assumptions. Based on better knowledge or not, they ARE assumptions.
 
GypsyComet said:
sideranautae said:
GypsyComet said:
Could be, sure, but re-read what I said. "Seen TO DATE". If you want to assume s.

Well, since we lack the tech to actually SEE them beyond a LY or so, but we CAN infer them infinitely better than when Trav was written.(back then there was ZERO data to go on.) Thus we have much more data to base estimations on.

So, what IS your point?

Heh. I recognize that tone. Couldn't stay away, eh?

A bridge is calling your name little troll boi. Just 'cause your daddy beat you is no reason to troll.
 
Gents - Please stop NOW.

This is a discussion on real data on star systems, not for the two of you to carry on some personal argument that roams around the various forums.

If you want to bait each other, take is somewhere else please.
 
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
Gents - Please stop NOW.

You're late by a couple days. AND I started this thread to get data. NOT you. Don't tell me to leave a thread I started because I'm trying to keep it on track. Capiche?
 
sideranautae said:
You're late by a couple days. AND I started this thread to get data. NOT you. Don't tell me to leave a thread I started because I'm trying to keep it on track. Capiche?

Take your attitude and leave.
 
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