Rail lines on high TL worlds?

All you are maintaining with a grav vehicle is the grav vehicle. It is like the difference between maintaining a semi-truck versus maintaining every road in the world. Grav vehicles use almost zero infrastructure. Switching stations are required everytime a train switches tracks. There is no such analog when no tracks exist. As far as Air Traffic Control, call it one for the whole planet. Cheap, easy, and totally automated. The even have the software written up in one of the books already. The software is famous for being overly cautious and 100% safe.

No one is using horse-drawn wagons for coast-to-coast transport of freight anymore and on a world founded at TL-11 that has since risen to TL-13, there would be no TL-8 and lower "legacy" systems.

What is cheaper? A cargo ship to ship freight across the sea or a cargo ship of the same size that runs on a track built over the ocean?
Refering to "Switching stations are required everytime a train switches tracks". You can actually programme modern trains with a route code. When the train approaches the points, a radio message goes from the train to the points and they change by themselves, if necessary. Motorised points are the standard these days. You only really see the old hand-operated mechanical points in the yards at the depot. Hence in the film unstoppable, he was jumping off the slowly moving train to change the points. Never do that. I'm an ex tram (streetcar) driver.
 
I am learning in this thread that every here just hates trains to the point of inventing stupid problems or trying to get into such minute details that no piece of equipment in Traveller can survive the scrutiny or thinking that a nationwide system of tracks and right-of-ways are somehow cheaper than just buying the train. I use modern number to educate you all and show you better, but you ignore it in favor of your biases. Same thing happened on here when I discussed UWPs and way to improve them.

If you didn't know about trains on Earth, you all would be trying to convince Me that trains on Earth would never exist. It amazes Me.

I don't know if it is gaslighting, trolling, or as some have said before they do not like the idea of finely and quickly manipulatable grav fields.
I love trains.:love:
 
Refering to "Switching stations are required everytime a train switches tracks". You can actually programme modern trains with a route code. When the train approaches the points, a radio message goes from the train to the points and they change by themselves, if necessary. Motorised points are the standard these days. You only really see the old hand-operated mechanical points in the yards at the depot. Hence in the film unstoppable, he was jumping off the slowly moving train to change the points. Never do that. I'm an ex tram (streetcar) driver.
I will bow out to your expertise on that matter, but I would prefer to keep this simple enough that We don't need to think about stuff like switching stations or satellite systems. We just assume that they are included in the cost or already present on the planet.
 
Agreed. Trains are cool.
Now that I think about it, it would be cool to have a grav equivalent of a subway running at an otherwise restricted elevation in a Coruscant style mega-city.
Still highly dependent on weather conditions, and each car needs a robot brain to prevent non-train-like behaviors.
 
What I learned, and its taken longer then I am willing to admit, is that this isnt a give and take for MasterGwydion. And we're suppose to just accept whatever you post as distilled virture and the platonic ideal.
And with that framework, it a lot clearer why you think there is a concerted effort to undermine you. Why would anyone have a different take, if not measured organized effort. Hopefully, you'll leave a post to explain how that collusion works.
A less sinister motivation in his desire to keep the arguments simple, and frustration over the minutiae of our wild arguments, may include that most of his RL players have a RL EDU of 6- due to the need for them to REALLY WORK to support their families early. In this framework, the basic cost analysis with minimal technical arguments makes sense. His players want a narrative fun time with plausible cool stuff, not a science class.

Reread your second, third and fourth sentences and think about that for a minute.
 
A less sinister motivation in his desire to keep the arguments simple, and frustration over the minutiae of our wild arguments, may include that most of his RL players have a RL EDU of 6- due to the need for them to REALLY WORK to support their families early. In this framework, the basic cost analysis with minimal technical arguments makes sense. His players want a narrative fun time with plausible cool stuff, not a science class.

Reread your second, third and fourth sentences and think about that for a minute.
This is it exactly. Thank you for stating this better than I was able to.
 
I am learning in this thread that every here just hates trains to the point of inventing stupid problems or trying to get into such minute details that no piece of equipment in Traveller can survive the scrutiny or thinking that a nationwide system of tracks and right-of-ways are somehow cheaper than just buying the train. I use modern number to educate you all and show you better, but you ignore it in favor of your biases. Same thing happened on here when I discussed UWPs and way to improve them.

If you didn't know about trains on Earth, you all would be trying to convince Me that trains on Earth would never exist. It amazes Me.

I don't know if it is gaslighting, trolling, or as some have said before they do not like the idea of finely and quickly manipulatable grav fields.
I LOVE me some trains! I think what you are hearing is that there is a variety of opinions that are being expressed that may agree, or not, with your views. I will gladly talk about trains all day, into the night, and the next day, too.

The point here is that you are expressing a view that is, in some instances, not matching factual data. Since grav technology does not exist we can only extrapolate from today's tech and the past century of so since trains exist. As others have pointed out, the concept of trains is no different than that of wagons or barges - each follows the path laid out for it. Ocean-going ships and trains are more comparable in that sense as they are able to (almost) go anywhere their medium exists.

The challenge you are facing for your supposition is one of cost. A single grav train car is not going to be cheap. A grav rail car is going to be a rough equivalent to a double-sized air/raft. Assuming just lift and some possible aerodynamic controls and other features you are looking to an approximate cost of Cr750,000 to MCr 1. That's a best guess based on what already exists in the books for vehicles, could be less, but it's a fair cost. We don't have any idea of the difference in costs for grav units that are lift only, vs lift-and-drive - or if that is even possible. So without that we just kind of have to leave that to the side. Some argue contragravity is lift only, with a different mechanism for horizontal movement. But this is getting away from the discussion.

So it comes down to the same questions we have today - is it cheaper to have fixed routes where you have fixed costs and cheap (relatively speaking) rolling stock, or not? If you want to have this argument you have to also consider the fixed cost for EVERY grav-equipped car, and just how much money you will have sitting around idle waiting to be used. The more expensive a single car is (especially with low utilization rates and long dwell times), then the higher your costs will be when it's used. An OTR tractor trailer is super-common, and while not cheap, they are relatively inexpensive. Non-specialized rail cars fall into a more expensive but similar idea. Each time the sophistication of the transport type increases then it gets harder to have more vehicles. Airlines have spare aircraft in case one goes out of service in an unplanned fashion, but there are limits to how many they can afford (and smaller airlines cannot afford any). It's very scalar and easily measured.

So I don't see this as it couldn't happen - but I do see that your insistence that it would happen along the ways you mention have a reasonable explanation as much for it COULD vs it WOULD. This is a game and we already know the economic model is shiite. But it's not meant to be an accurate simulation, so shiite works. All anyone can do is speculate and try to apply actual real-world examples to things like this unless you want everything built upon hand-wavium (and that occurs far often as it stands). I prefer a reasonable model built upon reasonable assumptions and extrapolations with a modicum of necessary hand-wavium that fits the game model. We aren't' talking about space orks who if they THINK it will work that way the universes' rules are bent to make it work that way.

I think it's entirely fair for people to disagree, and agree, with anyone posting their opinions in a public forum. If all any of us want to hear is our own voices then we have small enclosed spaces for that. Otherwise, if you are posting here expect people to disagree with you - sometimes politely, sometimes impolitely and rather vociferously impolitely. Welcome to the Interwebz!
 
I LOVE me some trains! I think what you are hearing is that there is a variety of opinions that are being expressed that may agree, or not, with your views. I will gladly talk about trains all day, into the night, and the next day, too.

The point here is that you are expressing a view that is, in some instances, not matching factual data. Since grav technology does not exist we can only extrapolate from today's tech and the past century of so since trains exist. As others have pointed out, the concept of trains is no different than that of wagons or barges - each follows the path laid out for it. Ocean-going ships and trains are more comparable in that sense as they are able to (almost) go anywhere their medium exists.

The challenge you are facing for your supposition is one of cost. A single grav train car is not going to be cheap. A grav rail car is going to be a rough equivalent to a double-sized air/raft. Assuming just lift and some possible aerodynamic controls and other features you are looking to an approximate cost of Cr750,000 to MCr 1. That's a best guess based on what already exists in the books for vehicles, could be less, but it's a fair cost. We don't have any idea of the difference in costs for grav units that are lift only, vs lift-and-drive - or if that is even possible. So without that we just kind of have to leave that to the side. Some argue contragravity is lift only, with a different mechanism for horizontal movement. But this is getting away from the discussion.

So it comes down to the same questions we have today - is it cheaper to have fixed routes where you have fixed costs and cheap (relatively speaking) rolling stock, or not? If you want to have this argument you have to also consider the fixed cost for EVERY grav-equipped car, and just how much money you will have sitting around idle waiting to be used. The more expensive a single car is (especially with low utilization rates and long dwell times), then the higher your costs will be when it's used. An OTR tractor trailer is super-common, and while not cheap, they are relatively inexpensive. Non-specialized rail cars fall into a more expensive but similar idea. Each time the sophistication of the transport type increases then it gets harder to have more vehicles. Airlines have spare aircraft in case one goes out of service in an unplanned fashion, but there are limits to how many they can afford (and smaller airlines cannot afford any). It's very scalar and easily measured.

So I don't see this as it couldn't happen - but I do see that your insistence that it would happen along the ways you mention have a reasonable explanation as much for it COULD vs it WOULD. This is a game and we already know the economic model is shiite. But it's not meant to be an accurate simulation, so shiite works. All anyone can do is speculate and try to apply actual real-world examples to things like this unless you want everything built upon hand-wavium (and that occurs far often as it stands). I prefer a reasonable model built upon reasonable assumptions and extrapolations with a modicum of necessary hand-wavium that fits the game model. We aren't' talking about space orks who if they THINK it will work that way the universes' rules are bent to make it work that way.

I think it's entirely fair for people to disagree, and agree, with anyone posting their opinions in a public forum. If all any of us want to hear is our own voices then we have small enclosed spaces for that. Otherwise, if you are posting here expect people to disagree with you - sometimes politely, sometimes impolitely and rather vociferously impolitely. Welcome to the Interwebz!
For a real answer, we will likely have to wait for the Vehicle Handbook update. Then We can actually know the cost of the trains and their cars. Until then, just using shuttles is cheaper than both regular trains and grav-trains. (based on the conversations above anyhow)
 
For a real answer, we will likely have to wait for the Vehicle Handbook update. Then We can actually know the cost of the trains and their cars. Until then, just using shuttles is cheaper than both regular trains and grav-trains. (based on the conversations above anyhow)
That would depend on what is in the book - and how well it tracks back to reality and common sense forming the core of the explanation. Otherwise it's quite possible just going to be shiite that players will have to ignore and do their own because it's just flat out bad.
 
That would depend on what is in the book - and how well it tracks back to reality and common sense forming the core of the explanation. Otherwise it's quite possible just going to be shiite that players will have to ignore and do their own because it's just flat out bad.
I am not aware of anything that Geir has updated or written that could be classified as "bad"
 
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