Questions about the Arms & Equipment Guide

[Vatras]

I have picked up the A&E Guide and found that some informations are missing in it. On the alternate material table for armor (pg. 33) are listed steel and wondrous metals after the monster hides, but they are not described in the text. The last metal described is gold before the section of monstrous hides, after which we come to repairs.
There is an entry for steel under the weapons section, but the game info is more for weapons than armor I think. Wondrous metals are mentioned there, but only as being the GMs domain.

What would the effects of steel used for armor be? I also remember the use of special metals in RQ 3 (Elder Secrets ?) - would those be wondrous metals in RQ II (I have no copy of Elder Secrets to look)?

I have read the section about enchanting items and I am not quite sure I understood the sorcery section. As far as I can see the sorcerer can create items only from his own personal MP, which are permanently invested (and may or may not be regained when the enchantment gets broken).
Does that mean that a sorcerer can only create enchantments worth a maximum of his own total MP, or is there a way to regain permanently lost MP? And what would happen if a sorcerer boosts his MP by Tap to use them for enchanting?

(Maybe that stuff is obvious, but I am used to RQ3, where you sacrifice POW to enchant things and recover it by POW gain rolls
Having only a possible maximum of 20 points in enchantments seems pretty few compared to RQ3, where you often have 80+ when attaining mage status. On the other hand I didn't see anything about matrix values stacking, and that you have only your own INT to store spells, which would mean that a mage doesn't need any in that area.)

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

"Arms & Equipment" is so severely broken even a Parliamentary committee wouldn't know where to start to fix it...

A good starting point would be to check through past list postings on "A&E" to find a lot of answers to some of your questions.

 

[dazzah]

Until the errata comes out (which doesn`t seem like mongoose is particularly interested in bothering. Its been 6 weeks since we were told it was being worked on!)

Im applying the following using POW sacrifice when it states permanent MP in my games. It works out much better. Otherwise even the most potent sorcerer can only have a few enchantments and even then only 3-4 actual MP to use in adventures!!!
And as it uses the enchanters POW it stops the oversight of MP being used from other sources that aren`t directly the enchanters, and so costing the enchanter effectively nothing to create enchantments.

I think permanent MP was tacked on last minute as a good potential game idea but not thought through.

It also takes a large number of improvement roll to gain a single POW characteristic so is a fair system that doesn`t cause over powered creation of enchantments.

 

[Loz]

Until the errata comes out (which doesn`t seem like mongoose is particularly interested in bothering. Its been 6 weeks since we were told it was being worked on!)

Which will be later this week. We are interested in bothering; its a question of working in the errata time with other projects.

Oh, and it was 4 weeks since I told everyone of my plan of action. :wink:

 

[gran_orco]

Loz and Pete are doing more for RuneQuest than many people and they are doing a great job. We should be patient as he said that they were working with the erratas.
I hope that it will be a complete solution for the book, not a few corrections.

 

[Loz]

What I'm finding is that there's a mix of necessary corrections, clarifications and interpretations. Looking at the rules for mounts and vehicles, for instance, its not that the rules are broken or mis-applied, but they do need clarification. Same with a couple of other things in Enchantments and Enhancements.

Of course, editing and writing errors, as evinced in the weapon stats and descriptions, do need reworking (and I've done that); plus I'm revisiting alchemy, too.

I'm hoping that the errata document won't need to reinvent the wheel - apt thought that would be for a book called Arms and Equipment - but a usable document that corrects, clarifies, and provides a usable ready reference. I'll be sending Matt the document in the next day or so, we'll review it, and then there'll be more news here.

Thanks for the patience everyone. I

 

[dbhoward]

Thanks for this post, Loz. I've been holding off purchasing A&E until there is a definitive fix. I for one appreciate your work on this and understand there are a lot of issues involved. Time, expense, etc.

That said, will there be second printing that incorporates the errata directly? I know, I know... expense, time, etc. I really do understand how the publishing world works. But this seems to be a product with major editing and compatibility issues and Mongoose can't afford to seem a shoddy operation. Products by other companies have been "recalled" in the past, IIRC... for less than the problems I've heard about in A&E.

 

[Vatras]

Back on topic...

...so is there (or will be) a way to regain lost permanent MP?

And has someone ideas about wondrous metals? I mean stuff expressed in game terms

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Using 'Necromantic Arts' you can do all sorts of things like sacrificing virgins to gain the MP to spend on the enchantment. You don't have to use your own.

 

[Loz]

Back on topic...

...so is there (or will be) a way to regain lost permanent MP?

And has someone ideas about wondrous metals? I mean stuff expressed in game terms

If a sorcerer puts his own MP into an enchantment, they're put beyond his use but not lost. Its akin to dedicating POW to a Pact in a divine cult. If the sorcerer surrenders the enchantment himself, he gets his MPs back.

Its thus sensible to use a spell like Tap or a Power Crystal to fuel enchantments. However, even a sorcerer who puts maybe 4 or 5 MP into an enchantment, from, say, a base of 11 (leaving him 7 or 6 MP for spells) can still work formidable magic.

If someone else wrecks the enchantment, then yep, the sorcerer's MPs are gone for good and he'll need to increase his POW (or use Tap spells) to gain additional MP for spell casting. Its a question of resource management and cunning use of what's available - plus keeping your beloved enchantments safe from those who would wreck them on your behalf...

 

[Vatras]

What happens, when a sorcerer loses some MPs placed into an enchantment and uses a Tap spell later on? Would those be only temporary, or would he keep them up to his maximum as dictated by POW?
And taken the other way round, if he uses Tap and then creates an enchantment (and not lose his own MP) - is it not too easy to create enchantments for everyday use, since he could do it every day?

(Since all the ways to gain MP seem to work to the detriment of someone else, we assume an unscrupulous magician here.)

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

You need to take into account the alternative sources of MPs.

Most are extremely morally, socially and religiously transgressive and would quickly lead to mobs with pitchforks calling for an auto de fé!!!

As Loz points out, one could use a magic crystal, but these are quite rare in MRQII (and thus valuable).

Actually using your own MPs (and then backing yourself up with that hard-to-find crystal) might be a whole lot easier and safer than "going to the Dark side" and potentially being impaled or similar.

 

[dazzah]

The sorcerer could spend his own magic points to enchant and then tap his own Stats. As MP gained by Tap are permanent up to your normal maximum this is a good way to get the MP back. If you tap your own POW, you are effectively simply sacrifising POW for the enchantment as in RQ3 etc.

As a bonus you could use "Restoration" to get the characteristic back. Making it easy to create unlimited MP in your enchantments. (Im making Restoration a very rare and exotic spell in my games to stop this being an easy option - plus at the moment im house ruling using POW rather than permanent MP anyhow until errata comes out and clears things up.)

 

[Vatras]

I was thinking of a morally acceptable use of Tap: let us say buying an oxen and then tap it for it's various stats, starting with STR. Buying an animal and butchering it should be acceptable in any community, unless they are vegetarians...
Even breeding rats in the cellar would work, they have statpoints to Tap, too, if you cannot afford to buy bigger livestock.

The point is that Tap does not need to be used on humans (or whatever is socially unacceptable where you live), it works on every creature which has the stat you can/want to use.

 

[gran_orco]

Loz, I do not understand some points of the A&E errata
Armour is listed as the cost per location. The exemple is about banded/lamellar. But, what is about specialised armour? For exemple, a plated coat is listed as 2 ENC and 1500 SP, and it covers 4 locations. Should be the final cost 6000 SP and 8 ENC, as you say in the errata?

Can a sorcerer create an enchantment using the mp of a binded spirit in an enchantment, or only from the sources of the list?

 

[Draconis13]

Well the Errata is out now but I still find the armor tables need some serious overhaul. The copy paste from RQ1 of the old style armors such as plated Coats which only weight the encumbrance of a single location of heavy leather, yet it covers five of them. brigantine weighing in at a massive 7 AP strikes me as rather odd since I would figure it would be on par with chainmail since its the same construction as the previously mentioned plated cloak which may have fewer plates. Some of the other materials are odd as well, bone is 300 but is made out of basically trash compared to labor intensive construction of linen armor which is a mere 75 and a point of enc less to boot!

The gauntlets as well do not seem to mesh well with the rules protecting the arms and offering massive penalties to dexterity. The heavy one in particular is merely points of armor yet is described as being like plate in general construction.

Though I like the general tone of the book some of the rules seem to have been written by different folks without checking to see if they conflict

 

[Raegenhere (Huscarl)]

Just on the table on page 30 Armour Types and Costs.

Brigandine (derivative from Coat of Plates) has an AP of 7 and cost per location of 1,500SP

Plate has an AP of 6 and a cost per location of 1,200 SP

Is that correct? Would Plate not be AP 8 (higher than Brigandine) and obviously more expensive?

 

[gran_orco]

Loz, I do not understand some points of the A&E errata
Armour is listed as the cost per location. The exemple is about banded/lamellar. But, what is about specialised armour? For exemple, a plated coat is listed as 2 ENC and 1500 SP, and it covers 4 locations. Should be the final cost 6000 SP and 8 ENC, as you say in the errata?

Can a sorcerer create an enchantment using the mp of a binded spirit in an enchantment, or only from the sources of the list?

Anyone?

 

[Draconis13]

Gran_orco

This is what is maddening. These armors were designed under the old MRQ1 rules and follow that games enc and armor point system. A plated coat like that is Brigadine! I am going to do the unthinkable and put pencil marks on my copy of Arms and Equipment to show Errata changes and house rules on this crazy armor chart. If it werent for the AMAZING quality of the other MRQ2 books (and they are some of the finest rules and actual book binding ive seen) I would be perhaps upset instead of just a tad frustrated. Thanks again on the errata BTW it has helped quite a bit, though I would like to see a second one with more depth. So as I can then scribe it into my copy.

 

[sdavies2720]

Gran_orco

This is what is maddening. These armors were designed under the old MRQ1 rules and follow that games enc and armor point system. A plated coat like that is Brigadine! I am going to do the unthinkable and put pencil marks on my copy of Arms and Equipment to show Errata changes and house rules on this crazy armor chart. If it werent for the AMAZING quality of the other MRQ2 books (and they are some of the finest rules and actual book binding ive seen) I would be perhaps upset instead of just a tad frustrated. Thanks again on the errata BTW it has helped quite a bit, though I would like to see a second one with more depth. So as I can then scribe it into my copy.

I bought the A&E Guide as a 'help' book. I have lots of equipment lists, but I thought it would be nice to have everything consistent for MRQ2 and in one place. That is the core value of this book for me -- the additional rules were nice but it's the consistent reference tables (consistent pricing, consistent characteristics, etc.) that sold the A&E Guide to me. So I agree, these problems are really maddening.

It's had an interesting effect on my purchasing. I love the core book, and started pre-ordering books at my FLGS in anticipation of building a library. So I got the A&E Guide and Necromancy both on preorder. Now, despite seeing more books I'm interested in, I'm going to wait until reviews are online and errata is out before buying anything. So from flying along at top speed, I've slammed the brakes on buying and am now at careful walking speed.

Steve