question regarding WW2

[Larac]

Perhaps,

Levy Troops
Each weapon in a Unit couts for 1/2 its normal damage, this is to show lack of training.
Also they may not use rules like covered advance.
Cover gives one pip lees protection.

Green Troops, (trained untested)
Loose 2 Dice (to a min of 2) during each Shoot Action.
This is to show poor fire displine.

Regular Troops
As per normal

Vet Troops
Command Radius +2"
If Ready when firing may may reroll any misses that are not 1s(trying not to break suppression)

Elite Troops
As Vets Plus
Reaction range is increased 2"


How is that for a start.

Lee

 

[weasel_fierce]

that looks like a great place to start

 

[hegemon]

First off I've Probably gone and shot meself in the foot as i haven't gone for a points system, but rather a "force Org" choice system, think of the 40k force org but with a priority level system.

eg a recce level force may have 1 squad or 1 special choice
a platoon level force may have 1 command, 3 squads, 1 support and 1 special
meanwhile a company has 3 platoon's and an addition 2 support, and 2 special.

Tanks and commandos/Waffen and the type will be classed as special with things like tanks costing 2 choices compared to the 1 of the commandos.


regarging the MG42, from the info i've used not all squads actually had the MG42 however i've given the option for the squads to be changed into the squads of the "paper german infantry."



the armies i've actually gone for at first are obviously the brits and germans, but i've also gone for the US marines and the japs.

i have tried to give each army a niche, eg

the Brits are more of a support army, with each section having a support gun group, theres also the light mortar section and the bonus action from the command squad. A sniper squad with four target rifles, and the commando squad of 13 men, 1 bren, 2 target rifles, 5 stens and 5 normal rifles

Germans meanwhile have increased firepower from the MG's, they also have the Waffen SS, who are actually quite scary being able to at most put out 36 dice for suppression. the HQ has a medic attached.

Yanks can feild "more squads", as each squad has 3 fireteams, having a larger HQ, and a machine gun support section.

the Japs on the other hand are just plain evil, they might need toneing down. each squad haveing 13 men, the HQ only has 2 men however they do have a rather nasty 4 grenade launcher equipped squad, aswell as being able to ignor suppression.

 

[hodgski]

Some comments/thoughts on an interesting thread:

The force org thing sounds like a very good idea, keep things simple. I'll be very interested to see if mongoose do follow up with their own WW2 Evo but guess this depends on the success of the others, best of luck with your own effort.

By all means cover the forces you wish but bare in mind the war in pacific was fought quite differently to european theatre, you might want to concentrate on getting 4 forces down for one theatre first: ie German Italian British American for ETO.

You might want to read Osprey's WW2 infantry tactics if you haven't already as this goes down to squad level. Think you are going down the right route with pinning/manouvre aspect of the game with the occaisional support element to make things different.

Regular Wermacht had one MG42 per section (3 sections in reality, mid war) Panzergrenadiers had two per section and were better trained, following up and holding/exploiting ground after the tanks broke through.

The Germans had the greatest flexibility in force structure, adding or removing units for a specific task (a Kampfgruppe) so would have the better access to support weapons at this level. The only platoon level assets for brits would be a light mortars and an A/T rifle team (piat team from Italy onwards.). You might have an attached artillery observer as a support option - say instead of a tank.

 

[hegemon]

Hodgski> even though britsh forces didnt have any other support i'd added a sniper section, as a special as it was admined at Coy level and it could be put into support the platoon.

I've now done my first playtest, a squad of brits faced off against a squad of jerrys. the terrain was based on a small four building village two buildings close to each DZ.

diced off to see who went first and the brits won so the gun group went for the northern building, (useing two move actions) while the rifle group ran for the southern,(again two move action).
the Jerrys mean while moved into cover with their first action and started fireing with the MG directed towards the gun group but they were hunkered down to much, and they decided to keep there head down, (i forgot about reactions)

turn 2 saw the gun group ready and then fire the bren, alas the jerrys kept there heads down. meanwhile the rifle group was out of range.
In the german turn they started to move south into the next building, didnt quite make it though (two move actions)

turn 3 saw the gun group open fire on the germans dashing for cover, and managed to down two krouts, the LCpl was very happy indeed. the rifle group however couldn't draw a line of sight.
The germans managed to get into cover and made a few pot shots at the rifle group manageing a single kill.

turn 4 saw the gun group open up with everything the had, unfortunetly they wernt lucky enough and missed everything, the rifle group also let rip and managed to clip a soldier, howevr the germans were now supressed. The Germans decided to shoot back and managed to score a hit on a brit rifleman.
the germans couldnt do anything this turn.

turn 5 saw the gun group score two hits and the rifle group 1. the jerrys shot back at the rifle group to no avail.
Germans shot with everything they had, not much by this time, and killed a brit, however the rifle group reacted and shot the jerry's and managed to kill the last few remaining soldiers.

As you guessed the brits won 9 kills to 4.


Summary:
cover is definatly a powerful tool, as long as you not with an 1" of the edge you cant be shot and the increased target score of 6 is definetly a good thing to have, I rolled a hell of a lot of 4's and 5's but they ment nout!!

Is any body else up for a play test, i personelly found the game really fast paced and managed the whole game in about 20min, sure it was only a single squad each but they sure did hang in there, it was infact quite enjoyable.

 

[Larac]

Not sure but if you use the Force Org for the basic troops and such, then use points for Company and Division Support, might keep things fair.

Will look over all the stuff I like the start, remember Ian is working on this as well.




On another point:
got a little long sorry

The main thing in most combats, is the sides are rarely even, as we all know.

For gaming then there are 2 major options,

Make the sides even and play, this is used most.
For pickup games almost a must.

You could play a defend mission, and give the attackers +20% forces, to try and make up for the defender placment, but if they had the x2 or x3 which was desired, for that type of attack, would the defender stand a chance?


Set up objectives, and milestones for the battle, so even if out numbered 6-1 and wiped out, that force can "Win", because they were able to complete enough tasks.

This is much more diffcult, for a mini game as terrian has so much to do with the game, and takes a lot of playtesting to insure that the smaller force can win, but not too easily.

I have played a few of these type games, the good ones are amazing, wiin or lose.

The bad ones are fustrating.

Lee

 

[PilGrim]

Snipers

NO! only in Holywood

Especially for the Brits.

Snipers are part of the intel section in a British Infantry Battalion. To cut a long story short these troops spend most of their time either patroling or observing, reporting to Battalion HQ and maintaining communications and intel. The shooty stuff is probably the last function on their list of jobs, and although it is the sexy bit, we really should not start down that route if there is any intention of sticking to the history. They would only start shooting people if the front were static- ie when there is no fighting goingon, so should not really be on table in a WW2 skirmish game except as part of an intel patrol, in which case they are probably tooled up with Stens and face paint. . Although about a totally different kind of battle, if you can pick up "Breaking the Panzers" by Kevin Baverstock, it has a great sidelight on what the intel section does in a Brit Inf Bttn in 1944, as well as being a bloody good read

If you want to give the Brits something as an asset that gets involved down in the mud with the squaddies, but is a bit different, how about a Wasp? These were sometimes deployed as a Battalion asset, either as part of the Carrier Platoon or as a section on their own. The other option would be an infantry support tank from an independant tank Brigade. In 44 this could be a Sherman or a Churchill. or god forbid, a Croc.

Lastly

Fireteams

NO (with the possible exception of the USMC)

The fireteam concept was not developed during WW2 (except as abv) so squads generally fought together, with the exception of gun groups splitting off. I would allow them to be dropped off or positioned to establish a firing position, but then require them to rejoin their parent squad rather than act independently. Having said that some units developed flexible tactics akin to fireteams, but this is more a result of experience and circumstance than doctrine.

 

[weasel_fierce]

Uh.. the idea of the fire team was very much around in WW2.

British infantry would, on paper, split into an assault group led by the corporal, and a gun group, manning the bren, led by a lance corporal. In practice, it wasnt all that common, since it was hard to coordinate properly, but men were definately trained for it.

Similar thing in US and German squads. The latter, late in the war, when some squads were issued 2 MG42 (discussion rages on whether this was only Panzergrenadiere or if it was for regular units as well, and how far it was carried through), would split fairly frequently, though they didnt stray far apart.

The US marines developed the first modern fireteams, where a 12 man section was expected to operate in three contained teams, each with two M1 riflemen, 1 grenadier with rifle grenades, and 1 BAR gunner.


Require that split teams stay within 8 inches or whatnot, but the ability, doctrine and training definately was there.

 

[Jhary]

Snipers

NO! only in Holywood

Sorry but in the normandie the allied forces lost a lot of Soldiers true Sniper fire.

 

[weasel_fierce]

If there were no snipers, why were there so many scoped rifles around ?

 

[Darkghost]

A soldier with a scoped rifle is different than a sniper though... you have to admit, there were more soldiers with scoped rifles than there were true snipers.

 

[weasel_fierce]

well, the americans considered any isolated rifleman to be a sniper

If we think in the sense of specialized elite types, then yeah, we're stuck at things like british commandoes, a few germans and a quarter billion russians.

There were plenty of opportunities for an enterprising marksman with a scope though. Each US infantry squad were, on paper at least, carrying a scoped Springfield 30-06. Im not sure how frequently they'd stick with it, as opposed to ditch it for an M1 when one became available.

 

[hegemon]

Pilgrim> From the information i've been useing it says there was a group of snipers at battalion level

The three Platoons served under a Company HQ, which now included two snipers. During late 1944, the Battalion's eight snipers were withdrawn from the Rifle Companies and located a distinct Section at Battalion HQ. This was a largely administrative exercise, but allowed a Sergeant, Corporal and two Lance-Corporals to be promoted within their ranks.

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/British/Infantry/british_infantry_battalion%201943%20to%201945.htm second paragraph beofre the summary.


the only fireteams i have are the USMC, unless you count the gun group of the british