question regarding WW2

[hegemon]

I'm attempting to sort out a evo system for ww2 for my gaming club, first i'm sorting out the brits and germans then yanks and whoever.

my first problem is tho how were the troops organised in ww2, for the brits and germans, did they have sections of 8, 20 maybe i don't know and cant find anywhere on the net to learn, maybe some nice peeps here could lend a hand.

cheers

Hege

 

[Elvis in Combat]

Check out this site:
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/

 

[Iorwerth]

I realise this post is about WW2, but I was wondering if anyone had thought of using it to do a Vietnam style game? or even Vietnam with Bugs, a sort of Tour of Darkness style?

I presume it would not be that difficult to make up the stats for new units, as the system seems quite simple. The only problem I see is the lack of fog of war in the jungle (as all figures are placed on the map). Not knowing the exact location of the enemy and spraying wildly into the jungle seems a classic part of vietnam, even if just in people's imagination.

 

[hegemon]

What do you peeps think of this:

British Rifle Section
Rifle Group - Cpl, armed with a Sten, and 6 riflemen armed with No.4 rifles.
Gun Group - LCpl and a Loader, armed with No.4 Rifles, and a Gunner armed with a Bren LMG.

Size 1 Move 5" Close Combat 2xD6 Target 4+ Armour - Kill 6+

No.4 Rifle
Range: 30" Damage: D6
Sten SMG
Range: 15" Damage: D6
Bren LMG
Range: 35" Damage: 2D6

The Gun group may split off from the rest of the section and act as an independent unit.

Bren
If a Ready action is taken to set this weapon up properly (lie prone, extend tripod, etc.) then all subsequent Shoot actions will gain one bonus Damage Dice though it may only shoot in its forward facing. This bonus dice is lost as soon as the model moves. In addition, every Damage Dice the weapon rolls count as two for the purpose of Suppression.




Platoon HQ
Platoon commander, armed with a Sten, a Sergeant, Signaller and one man, armed with No.4 Rifles

Size 1 Move 5" Close Combat 2xD6 Target 4+ Armour - Kill 6+

No.4 Rifle
Range: 30" Damage: D6
Sten SMG
Range: 15" Damage: D6

Command
So long as the Platoon Commander and Signaller remain on the table, and within 2” of each other, one section from his platoon may be given a bonus third action.




Light Morter Section
Gunner, armed with a Sten, and two men, armed with No.4 Rifles.
Size 1 Move 5" Close Combat 2xD6 Target 4+ Armour - Kill 6+

No.4 Rifle
Range: 30" Damage: D6
Sten SMG
Range: 15" Damage: D6
2” Inch Mortar
Range: 50" Damage: HE – D10
May also fire Smoke or Illuminating rounds.

Smoke – If the player opts to fire smoke, an area of his choice, depending if he is able to roll for it is now covered in smoke. When firing smoke the player must define where he wants the smoke to land, then they roll a d6, one an even roll the smoke has land where he wants it, on an odd result the smoke deviates D10 inches in the opponents chosen direction.

Illumination – A Player may also opt to fire an illumination round, this round is used to counter poor visibility during night time operations, an illumination round lasts until the start of the players next turn, and as such the opponent doesn’t have to use night fight rules either in his turn.


Please note my ranges are an estimation on my half, mostly coz i actually can't stand the whole 12", 24" etc, I know they work out into feet but why the hell does everything do it, why not nice whole blocks of 5!! sorry rant over.

 

[Elvis in Combat]

I can't give you real deep advice on the damage dice as I haven't played even a solo game of BF:E.

I have played a little SST v1 however. So, prepare to be amused. 8)

I play Disposable Heroes and the ranges you list are about what that system uses. It "feels right." I like how the Disposable Heroes system allows HMGs to fire at 48-60" ranges. :twisted:

Sten Gun:
I prefer that even the Sten gain an advantage with Dam dice over a rifle. It couldn't sustain a high rate of fire without problems but if an enemy is within 15" I don't that that mattered all too much.

Also, for late war consider the Thompson SMG as an option.


Regarding the Bren:
It has a bi-pod*, not a tripod. I like the idea of using a ready action to fire in sustained mode with an additional damage dice. Although I'm inclined to think that it shouldn't need a ready action to fire at all. Maybe another dice or a modifier if it's readied?

Normal Dam: 2d6
Ready Dam: 3d6 +2

It gives the player more flexibility to use it either in assualt or in it's "proper" fire suppresion role.

*For anyone interested in details on the physical aspects of the Bren gun, check out this picture

Mortar
I like your smoke rule, most systems require an enemy target. I figure that most smoke was landed on co-ordinates near the enemy but not always ON the enemy.

 

[hegemon]

I'd cheated abit and did a quick copy and paste which is why it said tri and not bi.

From what i've read the british army started useing the tommy shortly after dunkirk but couldn't get enough so the royal arsenal designed a cheap and easy to manufacture smg, the sten.

alltho i think your right about the dam die, but the thing is the british soldier was renowned for there use with bolt action rifles, most soldiers be able to shoot at a "higher rate of fire" than other nationionalities. so maybe an increase to the No.4 aswell compared to the nugent and Kar98k.

the reason i did the smoke rules that way was so the mortar crew could fire smoke to conceal a chargeing or retreating unit, but in game smoke will be a LOS blocker so basically you cant shoot through smoke.

regarding the bren dam die, what you typed there is what is implied by my rules. cos if you look at the stats its 2d6 then if the weapon is readied (shoud change to take out stable platform) the 2d6 is boasted to 3d6, with the dice counting as 6 for supression.



I would like to inplement commandos aswell but not sure how to do them justice.

 

[Paladin]

I realise this post is about WW2, but I was wondering if anyone had thought of using it to do a Vietnam style game? or even Vietnam with Bugs, a sort of Tour of Darkness style?

I presume it would not be that difficult to make up the stats for new units, as the system seems quite simple. The only problem I see is the lack of fog of war in the jungle (as all figures are placed on the map). Not knowing the exact location of the enemy and spraying wildly into the jungle seems a classic part of vietnam, even if just in people's imagination.

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23866&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

 

[Mr Evil]

just as a point of interest, weapons in WW2 were wildly inacurate wast till the 50's with the muzzle break they improved.

now the damage dice include the to hit, so you could put weapons at D6-1 for example of incrase target number.

or maybe weapons give targets a armour save as the troops dont wear any armour the weapons inefetivnes to hit could generate an armour save for oponent ?

just some idea.

ive always felt auto weapons should use a template for fire, but then that slows a game up i spose.

another option is that some weapons fire D6 shots but on a 1 for first action it over heats and jams, on second action of shooting on a 1 or 2 it overheats and jams, weapons that do this become useless for entire game.

it needs a play basicly, another good guid is to rip some bits from the WW2 project you can download that uses the lord of the rings rules, apparently there very good.

 

[hegemon]

And now for Jerry:

Rifle Squad
NCO, armed with a MP40 and pistol, a six men, armed with Kar98K Rifle, and a Gunner and loader with MG34 MMG, with the loader carrying a Kar98K Rifle
Size 1 Move 5" Close Combat 2xD6 Target 4+ Armour - Kill 6+

Kar98K Rifle
Range: 25" Damage: D6
MP40 SMG
Range: 20" Damage: 2D6
P38 Pistol
Range: 15" Damage: D6-2 - may be used while moving
MG34 MMG
Range: 45" Damage: D10+D6, (2xD10+D6 after a ready action)

MG34 MMG
If a Ready action is taken to set this weapon up properly (lie prone, extend tripod, etc.) then all subsequent Shoot actions will gain one bonus Damage Dice though it may only shoot in its forward facing. This bonus dice is lost as soon as the model moves. In addition, every Damage Dice the weapon rolls count as two for the purpose of Suppression.




Platoon HQ
Commander, with MP40 and P38 pistol, two men, with Kar98K rifles, and a medic with a P38 pistol.
Size 1 Move 5" Close Combat 2xD6 Target 4+ Armour - Kill 6+

Kar98K Rifle
Range: 25" Damage: D6
MP40 SMG
Range: 20" Damage: 2D6
P38 Pistol
Range: 15" Damage: D6-2 - may be used while moving

Medic
If a friendly model within 6” of the medic takes a wound, the medic will try and heal the wounded soldier. Roll a D6 on a 6+ the model is able to continue fighting, 4 or 5 and the model can carry on as normal in the players next turn. On a 3 the model lives but is left behind to be taken to a field hospital, no victory points are awarded for this model, and on a roll of a 1 or 2 the model dies as normal. Note this rule cannot be used if the model received a Kill.


Rifle Platoon
A rifle Platoon consists of 1 Platoon HQ and 3 Rifle Squad’s.
NB: the platoon may be issued with the Stg44, in which case the first two squads are wholly armed with the Stg44 while the third has the Stg44 and two MG42’s. In the Platoon HQ the commander and runners also have the Stg44 while the medic is still armed with his pistol.

STG44
Range: 20" Damage: 2D6+3
MG42 MMG
Range: 45" Damage: 2D10, (2D10+D6 after a ready action)

MG42 MMG
If a Ready action is taken to set this weapon up properly (lie prone, extend tripod, etc.) then all subsequent Shoot actions will gain one bonus Damage Dice though it may only shoot in its forward facing. This bonus dice is lost as soon as the model moves. In addition, every Damage Dice the weapon rolls count as two for the purpose of Suppression.

 

[tneva82]

now the damage dice include the to hit, so you could put weapons at D6-1 for example of incrase target number.

Of course that would mean that trooppers in cover would be INVULNERABLE in cover against basic rifles...

Target 4+ and cover=target 6+. So if you increase target or make basic rifle d6-1 basic rifle cannot possibly cause casualties.

Cover is powerfull but I doubt it would be good idea to make troops inside invulnerable

 

[Mr Evil]

now the damage dice include the to hit, so you could put weapons at D6-1 for example of incrase target number.

Of course that would mean that trooppers in cover would be INVULNERABLE in cover against basic rifles...

Target 4+ and cover=target 6+. So if you increase target or make basic rifle d6-1 basic rifle cannot possibly cause casualties.

Cover is powerfull but I doubt it would be good idea to make troops inside invulnerable

true, but unit would be supressed, also 6 is a chance to hit, but like i sugested another idea is to give each wepon a Save throw for its target to roll.

most weapon fire in WW2 never hit, its quite shocking, my granda was shot at for years durring the war and the only hit he recieved was fromshrapnel in a trench attack. his unit hardly ever carried any ammo as their was no point as they were such terrable shots. many of the captured german weapons also had no ammo in them, and captured italian had many armed with rifles with wooden barrels with no intention to fire !!!! at a stationary target at combat range, ive been told that out of 200 shots around 25 actualy hit the target.

maybe give units a dice penalty for their exsperiance ? for example, il use a strange example, we play paint ball alot, now were not great by any means but we took on several rugby clubs, and they got through around 800 rounds each on average, while we used on average around 300, with one player only fireing 7 shots the entire day ! we won every game some with only very few losses, but then many of us understood the idea of supression and cover and covering fire. and our shots counted, one game i had 3 players in a bunker shooting at me constantly, and every now and then id get the od shot of. i didnt bother shooting at them in cover as the chance of hitting a body part was so small so i did pop shots at the face masks to obscure their vision, while my little bunker got a new coat of paint ever few mins. to remove them from bunker they had to be flanked by tactics, one spray took them all out.

so taking this into account, exsperince has a lot to play on waisted fire power, and tactics, so i think in WW2 removing some one from cover should be extreemly dificult unless you flank them or asualt. the weapons back then did not have the same powe or cover busting potential.

so maybe yeah add a - to weapons firepower, but in respect of getting that lucky head shot, maybe allow the old 7+to hot option ie 7 =6 followed by a 4+ and 8= 6 followed by a 5+ and 9= 6 followed by a 6 after that then you havnt got a chance in hell. allowing units to aim would then increase their chance to remove a unit from cover, but if their supressed then they will have to do a little rushed shooting as per normal.

just ideas to make it les bf evo and more WW2 evo

 

[tneva82]

true, but unit would be supressed, also 6 is a chance to hit, but like i sugested another idea is to give each wepon a Save throw for its target to roll.

6 is chance to hit but if you make weapons d6-1 best you can roll is 5 while troops in cover would have target 6...

most weapon fire in WW2 never hit,

Yes but how interesting GAME would it be for 2 squads sit in cover without ANY possibility to hurt enemy with their basic weapons?-) You would effectively make either cover too important or basic rifles worthless. Why bother with weapon that cannot hurt the enemy?

so taking this into account, exsperince has a lot to play on waisted fire power, and tactics, so i think in WW2 removing some one from cover should be extreemly dificult unless you flank them or asualt.

When you need to roll 6 to even hit that IS pretty darned hard...No need to make them invulnerable to majority of weapons. That leads to static game and sometimes reality must take backseat for playability.

Maybe 1/6 hit chance is not realistic against troops in cover but give trooppers armour save to help if that is problem. But don't make them 100% invulnerable against basic weapons. That just leads to troops sitting in cover and rolling with their machine guns only for the game...

 

[Mr Evil]

thats why i sugested the 7+ to hit rule

also with having to make units assualt of flank entrenched units you would make the game far more non static as one player would have to have the balls to move forward, but as the normal man is so hard to hit any way it would be worth the risk, so would make a very dinamic and mobile game, yes cover would be a bonus but you would also need units designed for going out and dislodging units from their cover.. and gaining ground


hang on,, thats what WW2 fire fights were !!!

 

[hegemon]

Right I've done quite a bit, well by quite i mean as minimal as needed, of work on my WW2 mod, basic rules and some troops for Brits, Jerry's, Yanks and the Nips.

If anyone would like to play test for me i'm open to it, after all its a game i hope the wider community will play, which i doubt they will as i ain't a big old company, but only a poor little old student.

Anyway its here if you want a butch.


Snap shot of new rules:
Wind, Artillery, Smoke, night time operation or NTO's.

 

[PilGrim]

Just some thoughts \ opinions \ factoids

I am a bit worried about some of the stuff being said here about weapons and effect, as it seems some thinking and a bit more research needs to be done.

The first general point is this assumption that somehow WW2 weapons were innaccurate. I am not sure where all this is coming from, but I can see absolutly no evidence to suggest it. True, they estimate that something like 5000 rounds were expended to get a casualty, but to extrapolate that to innacurate is missing the point, you fire to suppress the target, killing him is a bonus. WW2 rifles on the whole fired full power ammo from a heavy barrel, and as such will as a rule be far more accurate than the short rounds fired by modern assault rifles. If in doubt, ask the Soviets about their experiences in Afghanistan in the early 80s, when their AK47 armed infantry found themselves at a range disadvantage against the Afghan tribesmen using pre WW1 Lee Enfields, which shot further, with more accuracy, and also alarmingly went through the Soviet body armour designed to stop assault rifle rounds. WW2 rifles are also sighted to far greater ranges than contemporary weapons, although this is partly a throwback to colonial \ 19th C and volley firing.

Marksmanship is a different story. In some modern peacetime armies marksmanship is encouraged (IIRC Brits, USMC at the moment) and the same was the case in 1939, but how long this lasted into WW2 is open to debate - not long I would suggest. As for lack of ammo in captured weapons - hmm, my grandad told me all sorts of stories, and I would throw an empty rifle away too, but the general theme running through the personal reports of combat veterans is that all infantrymen, no matter what nationality, took far more ammo with them than the manual suggested, if they could, and that extraordinary lengths were gone to to keep them supplied in action because it was accepted that if you run out you are liable to be less than enthusiastic about holding your ground.

Now the stats stuff.

In the European Theatre of Operations at squad level there is one single factor that dominates squad level combat, the MG42. Time and time again the Germans pin down UK and US squads with this superb weapon. There is no Allied counterpart. German squads are also designed to take advantage of this, and German doctrine (in a very small nutshell) was that the MG42 did the fighting, and the rest of the squad carried the ammo for it - and it needs LOTS. I can find no info to suggest it was very different on the OstFront.

All other weapons are secondary to the MG42. The Bren is a superb LMG, accurate and easy to maintain, but it can't put down rounds like the 42. I have neard stories that the Bren was too accurate, in that all the rounds would go to pretty much the same place, so it was great at killing one man, but the MG42 would make a platoon go to ground when it opened up. The US have the poorest LMG in the BAR, which has none of the advantages of the Bren or the MG42, and lots of problems of it's very own, like no barrel change, bottom loading magazine (so you cant fire and reload prone - infantry spend a lot of time prone)

The US do have the best rifle in the Garand, which was the only general issue self loader (both the Russians and the Germans had SLRs but not usually in the hands of every soldier). US doctrine was that they would win the firefight by using the aimed fire of their Garands to pin the enemy while they manouvred for the kill. This fell apart as soon as the MG 42 opened up, as everyone is forced to hug the ground and cant return accurate aimed fire. Of the other rifles, all the bolt action weapons are similar, I suppose technically the Mauser family are theoretically more accurate as the bolt design has a rear locking lug, as opposed to the SMLE which is front locking, which means the Mauser leaks less gas on firing, but the SMLE bolt is far easier to use and does not interfere with the sight picture as much as with the Mauser, and the SMLE has twice the magazine capacity and a higher rate of fire. The Nagant is probably the better target rifle with good ammo and sights, but to all intents performs the same as the others in the hands of Joe Blogs infantryman.

All SMGs are probably in game terms the same. Everyone has heard stories about this or that SMG but there seems to be no real difference in their effect with one exception, the Russian PPSH has 71 rounds in it's drum mag, more than twice that carried by the Sten or MP40. The Soviets were very fond of it and there is plenty of evidence that the Germans prized it as well for the edge that big mag gave.

So, what is the point of the above?

If you want to reflect the way WW2 squad combat worked using BFE the MG42 is the thing you need to get right. This gun, when set up on a bipod, needs to be able to suppress other squads on it's own. If I understand the rules correctly this means that it needs to generate a lot of hits. This may well mean 2 or more assistants feeding the monster. After that, all rifles should be the same, except the Garand. To give a feel for the balance, a squad of 10 GIs with M1s could not hope to win a fire fight with a similar German squad with a single MG42 team. To make matters worse, every GI killed or wounded reduces the firepower of the squad by 10%, every dead Lanser has almost no effect on the German firepower until they run out of MG gunners, and anyone in the squad can fire the gun.

If you want to have a good basic appraisal of the problems the US infantry faced have a read of "Beyond the Beachead" by Joseph Balkoski. It is a history of the US 29th Infantry Div in Normandy, but has a very good section on tactics ,equipment and doctrine, and how they interract. Highly recommended.

 

[Mr Evil]

like you said the game would be alot about supression, thats why i sugested what i sugested, as its only natural 1s that are ignored, all other dice count towards supresion.

you could make the the weapon you mentioned 4 shots, and each shot classes as 3 for supression, that means the weapon on its own could supress a unit of 12 men if none of its shots rolled a 1, ar 9 if it rolled a single 1 and so on.

WW2 wold be very much about supression compared to the mobile modern warfare.

if you made the game about supresion and breaking the line to assualt dug in troops the feel would be right as you would employ tanks to cover your advance or advance behind, and supress enemy so when you assault all the can do is move away or stand their ground.

would definatly make a very interesting game i think, and all about planning your attacks, and fire order, so supres units befor a charge.

 

[weasel_fierce]

In Vietnam, the ratio of "bullets fired to people killed" was twice that of WW2.

It has nothing to do with weaponry (WW1 and 2 rifles still outshoot most modern rifles, in terms of accuracy) and everything to do with doctrine and the general nature of warfare.

At the ranges portrayed on a games table, small arms fire will kill things just fine.


The real issue with using evolution is that you have no mechanical way of handling troops of different levels of training and quality. There's a world of difference between a russian peasant conscript in 1941, and a british commando in 1944. The rules only reflect the difference of their gun, which within the same class of weapon is very limited.

Look at things like different levels of reaction to suppression, for some possible solutions.


One thing i suggested a while back, on this forum, was various national traits to distinguish troops a bit more from each other. I'll see if I can dig it up again, and you can see if you find it usefull at all.

Be carefull with broad assumptions though. What was true in one battalion would be a lie in another and so forth.

 

[weasel_fierce]

here we go. These were just some quick stuff thrown together in approximately 29 seconds


Bug out! US rule: A lot of US infantrymen were fresh recruits, thrown into battle. Recruits are [insert suitable number] % cheaper to buy, but if fired upon, and the squad has not reacted yet, roll 1D6. On a roll of 1-2, the squad bugs out, and moves its full move away from the firing squad. On a 3-6 they may act normally.

Walking fire! US rule: US troops often complained about being low on ammo, when they reached the point that their German or Soviet counterparts entered battle with. Once per game, a US squad may conduct walking fire. Advancing, while unloading a steady hail of bullets. This allows you to spend both actions moving AND shooting. This fire is always considered to be in cover (if the target is already in cover, no casualties are inflicted). However, double the attack dice for suppression purposes.

Mission tactics!: German rule: German troops were generally briefed on their own objectives, as well as those of their immediate superior. German units never suffer a penalty for loosing their squad leader.

Soviet special rules:

Soviet squads may NOT be split into teams. They operate as a single entity.

Tenacity: Soviet troops tend to be extremely rugged, as well as excellent users of camouflage. USSR infantry receive an armour roll of 6+, if they are in cover or more than 20" from the enemy.

Fix bayonets: While the human wave is a thing of the past in 44, Soviet tactics tended to emphasize close quarters attacks, with spade, grenade and bayonet. Soviet troops may reroll one failed attack die, if they charge a suppressed enemy squad.


While most Soviet troops in 44 are pretty rugged fellows, if you want to represent quickly rounded up conscripts, add the following rule:
Run away!: A soviet squad fired upon must spend its reaction moving away from the enemy, unless every model fired upon is in cover. Squads within 5" of a platoon commander may ignore this rule.

This rule is mostly appropriate up to Stalingrad. By no means all troops acted this way, so make it an option, to save points.


Finnish infantry (winter war of 39-40 mostly, but they fought the Soviets pretty much through to the end)

Im not up on exact squad details in my head. During the winter war, squads dont nescesarily carry an LMG (IIRC, 2 guns per platoon). For Continuation war, supplies are better (and lots of captured soviet guns are around)

For special concerns and rules:

Stay alive!: While dogged and tenacious, the Finn's also realize that manpower is a very important commodity. Once a Finnish force reaches 40% casualties, every squad will immediately retreat one move directly from the enemy, unless this takes them out of an entrenchment or similar position of cover. No charges may be launched after this point, unless the enemy is suppressed, or the combat occurs entirely within a terrain feature.

Sisu: Roughly meaning "Guts", the Finnish army perfected close terrain commando tactics. A finnish squad may perform a special "shoot and scoot" action, allowing them to fire any SMG's they carry, then move their full move, provided the move takes them directly away from their enemy or into a position of cover. This prevents them from reacting this turn, however.

 

[Col_stone]

Sissi is a Finnish term for a soldier who conducts guerrilla warfare operations behind and within enemy lines. The word is derived from Russian word "Shish" meaning forest bandit. (wiki)

It's Sisu that's about guts, tenacity, stubborness, fighting spirit.

 

[weasel_fierce]

Fixed it!