question re weapons with burst radius

[xbowmen]

You can never place a FP beyond a wall or cover? Where in the rules do you see that? And those units that have a grenade lanchers, can they place their FP beyond the wall. If so, all those behind the wall get no cover right?

Errr the bit where it says that the firing model MUST have LOS to the FP. If the FP is on the otherside of a wall or other cover then how can you get LOS to it? Page 15 last sentance of the 2nd last paragraph and last paragragh, last sentance.

Firing models must also be able to trace Line of Sight to the center of what is called the FireZone.

All models in the unit must use the same fire zone - any model
that cannot draw Line of Sight to the center of the fire zone may not join in on the attack,

I guess we handle the FP like as if you can see a model that is more than 1" away from the wall. The reasoning is if you can fire on a model that is more than one in away from the wall, (all be it as obstuctive view you still have a LOS) then you can place a FP point too. since the rule book does not state a clear line of sight or an obstructive line of sight, our group choose the later.
Den

 

[cordas]

I would say that it demands LOS, that means it needs CLEAR LOS.

There are 3 catagories for LOS, as outlined on page 16 of the rule book.

Clear: No terrain (or terrain that does not block LOS such as a river or road) exisits between the attacker and target. No effect, shooting is possible.

Obscured: Terrain interrupts LOS but both models can partially see one annother (that is terrain hides any part of the target model). Target gains a +1 bonus to its Target score.

Blocked: Terrain interrupts LOS so neither model may see the other. No line of sight possible.

Blocked is a no brainer. Obscured states that LOS is interruped, which leaves only clear as possible for generating the center point of a fire zone, it even says shooting is possible, which to me re-inforces my reading that you must have clear LOS to the center of the FP.

This has been also been talked about previously on the forum, with regard placing you FZ behind a squad so you could effectively snipe off models such as command or special weapons hiding at the rear. Matt has made it clear in these topics that clear LOS is required for models to be able to shoot into the FZ.

It really shouldn't be a huge issue as the FP is only used to designate the FZ, and anything in the FZ can be hit unless it is blocked from all the shooting models.

 

[xbowmen]

Pg 15 in all cases, line of sight is traced as a straight line from the center of each firing model to any part of a potetential target model. Firing model must also be able to trace a LOS to the center of what is called a Fire Zone.
A fire Zone is simply is 6" radius. this radius originates from a a central point and extends in all directions, including upwards. the center point of a fire zone need not be an enemy model, and can in fact be open ground.
The way you guys read the rule main guns of a tank could never use a fire point that is beyond any cover like low walls or sandbags because of LOS problems
I confuse. I thought the center of FZ could extend upwards by 6".

 

[xbowmen]

I would say that it demands LOS, that means it needs CLEAR LOS.

There are 3 catagories for LOS, as outlined on page 16 of the rule book.

Clear: No terrain (or terrain that does not block LOS such as a river or road) exisits between the attacker and target. No effect, shooting is possible.

Obscured: Terrain interrupts LOS but both models can partially see one annother (that is terrain hides any part of the target model). Target gains a +1 bonus to its Target score.

Blocked: Terrain interrupts LOS so neither model may see the other. No line of sight possible.

Blocked is a no brainer. Obscured states that LOS is interruped, which leaves only clear as possible for generating the center point of a fire zone, it even says shooting is possible, which to me re-inforces my reading that you must have clear LOS to the center of the FP.

This has been also been talked about previously on the forum, with regard placing you FZ behind a squad so you could effectively snipe off models such as command or special weapons hiding at the rear. Matt has made it clear in these topics that clear LOS is required for models to be able to shoot into the FZ.

It really shouldn't be a huge issue as the FP is only used to designate the FZ, and anything in the FZ can be hit unless it is blocked from all the shooting models.

I guess that my problem is whether LOS is meant to be clear or obstructive. If you are right, Tanks main gun could never fire over and low wall because the FP LOS is obstructive. That does not make sense to me. nor does it make sense that a enemy model that is 10" behind a low wall can never be shot at,(even if t is in range ) because the FP is obstructed by the low wall. I think this is a can of worms that needs Mongoose to define in a errated page or something like that, and give plenty of examples. I'm not the only one that has a hard time understanding this because there is other posts on the forum on this matter. MP should have wriitten the rule as having a ClearLOS. But it did not and that is why I'm confuse.
Den

 

[cordas]

I guess that my problem is whether LOS is meant to be clear or obstructive. If you are right, Tanks main gun could never fire over and low wall because the FP LOS is obstructive. That does not make sense to me. nor does it make sense that a enemy model that is 10" behind a low wall can never be shot at,(even if t is in range ) because the FP is obstructed by the low wall. I think this is a can of worms that needs Mongoose to define in a errated page or something like that, and give plenty of examples. I'm not the only one that has a hard time understanding this because there is other posts on the forum on this matter. MP should have wriitten the rule as having a ClearLOS. But it did not and that is why I'm confuse.
Den

Hmmm not sure about this, we have always just assumed that tanks can see over walls, if they happen to be taller than the walls.....

 

[xbowmen]

I guess that my problem is whether LOS is meant to be clear or obstructive. If you are right, Tanks main gun could never fire over and low wall because the FP LOS is obstructive. That does not make sense to me. nor does it make sense that a enemy model that is 10" behind a low wall can never be shot at,(even if t is in range ) because the FP is obstructed by the low wall. I think this is a can of worms that needs Mongoose to define in a errated page or something like that, and give plenty of examples. I'm not the only one that has a hard time understanding this because there is other posts on the forum on this matter. MP should have wriitten the rule as having a ClearLOS. But it did not and that is why I'm confuse.
Den

Hmmm not sure about this, we have always just assumed that tanks can see over walls, if they happen to be taller than the walls.....

For direct fire weapons maybe there need to be a "dead zone," to the LOS issue. Ex : Low wall equal a 1 or 2 inch, " dead zone," for clear LOS purpose. However if using a grenade launcher , there would be no dead zone because these weapon are design to arc and land very close to those taking cover behind a low wall and therefore no cover modifier giving to those targets.
Den

 

[cordas]

For direct fire weapons maybe there need to be a "dead zone," to the LOS issue. Ex : Low wall equal a 1 or 2 inch, " dead zone," for clear LOS purpose. However if using a grenade launcher , there would be no dead zone because these weapon are design to arc and land very close to those taking cover behind a low wall and therefore no cover modifier giving to those targets.
Den

There are no in-direct fire weapons in the game, apart from off board artillery which is handled in a completely different manner to normal shooting. I would also argue that grenade launchers are direct fire weapons, they might not need the accuracy of rifles but they are still fired on a near flat tragectory. Firing them up in the air and hoping they will come down where you want them isn't really an option as far as I am aware.

 

[xbowmen]

On pg 16 they have an picture example of Obstructive LOS for shooting. That figure looks to me to be more than six inches away from that wall.
On another issue to this post.
If granade lauchers can not lob then maybe hand granades can be thrown within 1 inch of targets taking cover behind a wall and those targets get no cover bonus for them.

 

[The Old Soldier]

What hand grenades?

 

[cordas]

If granade lauchers can not lob then maybe hand granades can be thrown within 1 inch of targets taking cover behind a wall and those targets get no cover bonus for them.

Cover works in more than 1 way, it doesn't just make it hard for models to see you and draw a bead, it also is objects that can stop rounds / shrapnel from damaging your models.

Just remember that the grenade only needs to be allocated to a model (all dice that do not roll a 1 get allocated) for there to be an explosion. The model under the grenade also takes a hit from the explosion, if it hasn't already been killed. (this applies to all explosive weapons)

 

[xbowmen]

What hand grenades?

Pg 25 of the rule book talk about grenades.

Back on LOS: If you guys are right about FP needs clear LOS, then the rules will be ruin because as a GM I can not give an explanation of a a target that may be 13" away from the firer but there a low wall or sandbags in between them is only 5" from the firer. By my calculations 1"= about 15 years. (This is base on a range of 24" equal 400 yards.) So a target that is 200 yards away can not be fire on because the Fire point is block 75 yards away. Also what make you think that a FP has to be on the ground? Could it not be an point above the ground?
It does make sense that Obscured LOS can have a FP up to the max range stated on the card. Cars, low walls snadbags , and other low objects should not inhibit the FP of its placing. I can see my group getting out periscopes and laser pointers and aligning it to the firer model head to prove where a clear LOS can be found over a low wall to place a FP. You would see pigion holeing of likes that never been seen before. it would be far simplier to allow Obstructed LOS to the FP. and thats MHO
Den

 

[xbowmen]

If granade lauchers can not lob then maybe hand granades can be thrown within 1 inch of targets taking cover behind a wall and those targets get no cover bonus for them.

Cover works in more than 1 way, it doesn't just make it hard for models to see you and draw a bead, it also is objects that can stop rounds / shrapnel from damaging your models.

Just remember that the grenade only needs to be allocated to a model (all dice that do not roll a 1 get allocated) for there to be an explosion. The model under the grenade also takes a hit from the explosion, if it hasn't already been killed. (this applies to all explosive weapons)

Pg 25 Size 1 models may elect to use grenades with a Ready action. It must be either within 6" of a structure or inside one. A fire zone is created as normal with a 3" radius. every model within the Fire zone will have Damage D6 rolled against it, even if not in LOSand will not receive the benefit of cover or obscured LOS. Sooo cover does not stop this type of shrapnel.

 

[cordas]

Pg 25 Size 1 models may elect to use grenades with a Ready action. It must be either within 6" of a structure or inside one. A fire zone is created as normal with a 3" radius. every model within the Fire zone will have Damage D6 rolled against it, even if not in LOS and will not receive the benefit of cover or obscured LOS. Sooo cover does not stop this type of shrapnel.

and? This is a special rule regarding the use of grenades against units inside structures. Similar to Supporting artillery.

There is nothing in the rules regarding using grenades against units in woods, or hiding behind walls. You still need to have LOS to create the FZ as it says the FZ is created as normal.

 

[BuShips]

The only allowance to infantry splash damage that I can think of is Matt's unofficial S&P article about infantry transported on tanks.

Where was this at?

It's in S&P #42 wargamer, page 60. Remember that it's unofficial.

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/sp42war.pdf

 

[xbowmen]

Pg 25 Size 1 models may elect to use grenades with a Ready action. It must be either within 6" of a structure or inside one. A fire zone is created as normal with a 3" radius. every model within the Fire zone will have Damage D6 rolled against it, even if not in LOS and will not receive the benefit of cover or obscured LOS. Sooo cover does not stop this type of shrapnel.

and? This is a special rule regarding the use of grenades against units inside structures. Similar to Supporting artillery.

There is nothing in the rules regarding using grenades against units in woods, or hiding behind walls. You still need to have LOS to create the FZ as it says the FZ is created as normal.

So what you are saying is you can not lob a grenade over the wall because the FP can't be move beyond the wall? Hmmmmmm I know I can not agree with you on this because I don't think you are using logic, reason or being realistic even though you are right, that there is no BFE rule on grenades being use on targets behind walls.
Den

 

[cordas]

So what you are saying is you can not lob a grenade over the wall because the FP can't be move beyond the wall? Hmmmmmm I know I can not agree with you on this because I don't think you are using logic, reason or being realistic even though you are right, that there is no BFE rule on grenades being use on targets behind walls.
Den

Nope you can't lob a grenade over the wall because the rules don't say that you can, they say you can only use them in or assaulting structures. I suppose you could come up with a house rule to recognise walls as structures, actually I think this is a good idea!!!

Forget about the FP when you shoot, (actually forget about the FP full stop as MGP never mention such a thing anywhere, its a just a term that is used on the forums to help us debate issues around fire zones) grenades can be shot over walls, its just the models on the other side of the wall get a cover bonus against the grenade actaully doing them any damage. -> Edit, note the grenade doing damage not the explosion.

As for using logic, reason and being realistic..... what flipping blue bats of mercury does that have to do with wargamming :lol: As one of my mates is wont to say "common sense has no place in wargamming" The entire game is an abstraction of what sort of happens in real combat.