Question re. removing Attacks of Opportunity

[Akrasia]

This may be a stupid question, but please bear with me. I plan to purchase Conan, and like pretty much everything I know about it, except that it keeps the one thing I dislike the most about 3.x DnD combat, namely, "Attacks of Opportunity."

So my question is: how much impact will removing this nuisance have on the Conan game? In DnD (at least in my experience) it renders a few feats irrelevant, and the tumbling skill marginally less useful, but that is about it.

Thanks!

 

[chikngizrd]

Yeah, thats about it....

If you don't mind scrubbing a few feats and decreasing tumble's efficacy then AoO could be removed with little impact on the game. I wouldn't recommend it though as the whole aspect of AoO add a great element to the tactics used in combat situations.

Now, granted in 3.0 and maybe in 3.5, what activated an AoO was sometimes not well thought out (climbing a ladder does but climbing a rope does not, for instance), but the idea of AoO is pretty sound. I would recommend relisting those actions that activiate AoO as opposed to scrubbing them from the combat tactical.

 

[Sutek]

In Conan, AoO are provoked more often, so you're losing a lot of the combat engine if you omit thier existance from your games. That said, you're the GM and you rule...

 

[argo]

<shrug>

The interesting thing about AoO's is that they represent an entire universe of combat options unto themselves. This means that on the one hand removing them has a drastic effect on the game as it closes of entire portions of the ruleset. On the other hand it has little effect on the rest of the combat engine since AoO's are a mostly self-contained subset of the rules.

The biggest problem I see with Conan specifically is not decresing the value of Tumble. It is the fact that everybody can choose to Fight on the Run as part of the basic ruleset. Without AoO's this effectievly gives eveybody Spring Attack for free. Conversely the Mobility chain is a powerfull ability (for just the reason stated above, and others) that helps keep the classes that have it on par with the other melee classes in the game. Removing AoO's disproportainetly hurts the Barbarian and Nomad (wheras in stock DnD it hurts no class more than any other, except maybe the rogue).

So if you still feel that you want to remove AoO's from Conan I would suggest that you adopt a limited approach. Keep AoO's for: moving out of a threatened space, casting a spell in a threatened space and firing a ranged weapon in a threatened space. Those three are probably the most important AoO's to keep and, luckily, they are also the easiest to adjudicate.

Hope that helps.

 

[Akrasia]

Hey Argo, weren't you just at ENworld?

I have to say that this is a bit disappointing. I was hoping for a FASTER system with Conan. IMO Hyboria combat should be "fast and furious", and not reduce to the "small-scale tactical wargame" that 3.x DnD seems to lean towards.

Oh well. I am still psyched to pick up the Atlantean edition and Road of Kings once my LFGS gets them. But I will probably use a more "rules lite" system for my Hyborean campaign. The tediousness of determining 5-foot steps and AoOs just ruins Conan IMO.

 

[Zul-Daire]

Not to mention a powerful Sorceror would mop up if he did not provoke AOO's and had the "Rule of Success" on his side.

I am sure those who enjoy the sorcery styles know what I am talking about. 8)

I personaly love AOO's and the options and variables it adds to combat.

My group went with the house rule of provoking an AOO on a 5' step if you do an action that would nomally provoke.

 

[Sutek]

And it's what Combat Reflexes was made for. Since so many other feats that have to fill slots in base 3.X DND are given as freebies in Conan, there's no excuse not to take feats like this...

 

[Anonymous]

So my question is: how much impact will removing this nuisance have on the Conan game? In DnD (at least in my experience) it renders a few feats irrelevant, and the tumbling skill marginally less useful, but that is about it.

I understand your sentiment. However, I would note that AoO work a little simpler/less tactically in Conan than D&D 3.5, esepcially for someone like me who doesn't use minis.

Given that, I think you could simplify AoO without removing them? This would mean you would retain the balance in the system but hopefully end up with something you like.

The basic AoO rules in Conan are you provoke an AoO when, whilst in a threatened spot:

1. You perform a distracting action.
2. You combine a move with some other action.

A simpler way of saying it for non-mini use may be: you provoke an AoO when performing any action whilst in a threatened spot that isn't a melee attack or a retreat. The rest of the system should fit into this interpretation relatively easily.

Just my 2c.

 

[Sutek]

Erm...

...how do you know if you're in a "threatened spot" if you aren't using minis or a grid? I guess it coul dbe done sort of "meta-gaming" style, but the minis are so intrinsic to the system I'm having a hard time picturing how you handle stuff like AoOs.

 

[Anonymous]

Erm...

...how do you know if you're in a "threatened spot" if you aren't using minis or a grid?

Actually, its very simple. Its where someone can smack you with a melee weapon. As such, if you are engaged in melee with someone then you are in a threatened spot. If you need to be more precise, go with the rules i.e. within 5ft of a melee weapon or 10 ft with a reach weapon.

 

[Sutek]

So it's really just a "trust the GM" thing. That's cool. Just that with the figs and a grid mat ther no doubt. Try it - even with coins to represent the characters - it's much better.

 

[Anonymous]

Araskia, if you do not like AoO, you might want to purchase the Lone Wolf roleplaying game, from mongoose. Its very well written (by august hahn), and there are a couple of core class previews on the mongoose website.

While conan is an excellent rpg, lonewolf is at least as good, with a very detailed and flavorful world (just like conan), but with none of the bogging rules.

 

[Anonymous]

So it's really just a "trust the GM" thing. That's cool. Just that with the figs and a grid mat ther no doubt. Try it - even with coins to represent the characters - it's much better.

Yes and no.

Simply put if you attacking someone, you need to be within 5ft. So you must be in their threatened spot. This deals with most situations of AoO.

If you are moving around antagonists then GM trust is required. I don't have any issue with this as I personally find that GM trust is required for RPGs anyway as they create the story, world and encounters that the PCs live in. I trust the GM not to throw impossible encounters at me and to create a fun story so adjudicating AoO is a very small trust in comparison.

Many years ago, when I much younger, I did have a GM that acted more like an opponent than a GM. In that case, I probably would agree with you. However, I have left that style of RPGing long behind me.

As for minis, I have tried them quite a bit over the years. I generally find that the use of minis breaks the dramatic tension and the furious pulp action feel, that I prefer, in exchange for increased tactical decision making, which I don't really like. YMMV

 

[Anonymous]

Araskia, if you do not like AoO, you might want to purchase the Lone Wolf roleplaying game, from mongoose.

I agree to an extent. However be wary, AoO of a kind are still in LW though they are more subtle. The same occurred in original SWd20 RPG which was meant to be AoO free. Rather than make a single explicit rule on AoO, they are hidden in the specific rules for disarm, overrun etc. I find that the end result can be just as complex.

 

[Cranus]

Hal wrote:
As for minis, I have tried them quite a bit over the years. I generally find that the use of minis breaks the dramatic tension and the furious pulp action feel, that I prefer, in exchange for increased tactical decision making, which I don't really like

I agree. While they help in terms of layout and AoO's adjudication, they do cause a breakdown in other areas. For some reason, most games I have played in recently rarely have AoO's occur. Mainly because people are too focused on "tactical decision making". Heck, it even borders on being unrealistic.

 

[Sutek]

Try inverting INIT results. That can help.

Essentially the high (normally "good" scores) go last, but it simulates the more quick witted being capable of reacting to everyone elses moves. They may go last, but they can easily then be out of range or position to be attacked and to intercept or fall victim to AoOs more often than actual, straight-up attacks.

 

[SableWyvern]

So it's really just a "trust the GM" thing. That's cool. Just that with the figs and a grid mat ther no doubt. Try it - even with coins to represent the characters - it's much better.

Well, if there's no physical representation of the characters, then everything is a "trust thing" to some degree. More than that though, I think it's a "familiarity with the system and group cohesion thing" . Either way, AoOs are not special in this regard.

Grids, rough sketches and pure imagination are all equally valid methods, each with their own merits and flaws (with the specifics of those merits and flaws depending very much on personal taste). For myself, I now use grids and minis pretty much exclusively, but for most of my gaming career it was either rough sketch or imagination only.

As happy as I am with using grids and minis these days, there are times when I miss some of the facets of the more abstract methods of running combat.