Pushing Abilities to the Limits - Need Different 'Cost'

[Arkobla Conn]

I like the new sourcebook Hyboria's Fiercest. It's got great feats and skills and some interesting twists on classes [although what, fundementally, is the difference between a class that is border/barbarian and one that is barbarian/borderer?]

With that said, I need a new 'cost' for pushing abilities. As seen in multiple other posts, I don't give experience points out, so using them as a 'cost' doesn't make any sense. Any ideas here?

(Also, the breast count was way too low in this book )

I'd apologize to Raven, but I'm staying WAY clear of her since the finger incident...

 

[René]

Since such incredible actions tend to earn some EXP, the whole thing will often be EXP neutral in the end. So maybe there isn't a real EXP cost.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

I like the new sourcebook Hyboria's Fiercest. It's got great feats and skills and some interesting twists on classes [although what, fundementally, is the difference between a class that is border/barbarian and one that is barbarian/borderer?]

Which class you start with and the variant rules I think.

[P.S. A+ for effort on Hyboria's Fiercest. I can use the whole of it, not just the good parts.]

With that said, I need a new 'cost' for pushing abilities. As seen in multiple other posts, I don't give experience points out, so using them as a 'cost' doesn't make any sense. Any ideas here?

Taking Damage- either hp or Ability [although I thought you already did that according to the rules] or just 'bad karma' perhaps/ Push yourself too much and the gods [you] decide to punish their hubris. Keeps them humble.

(Also, the breast count was way too low in this book )

Which is why it got a good rating. Let's rely on literary skill, not cheesecake please....

I'd apologize to Raven, but I'm staying WAY clear of her since the finger incident...

You think that will save you? :bends back the string of a stolen Bossosian longbow with poison tipped arrow and takes aim:

Raven, :lol:

 

[VincentDarlage]

I like the new sourcebook Hyboria's Fiercest. It's got great feats and skills and some interesting twists on classes (although what, fundementally, is the difference between a class that is border/barbarian and one that is barbarian/borderer?)

Not much - I wanted to illustrate that there is more than one character concept out there for different mixtures of classes. Often I had to choose between three or four ideas as it was. The ideas in the books are merely samples to get the creative juices flowing.

With that said, I need a new 'cost' for pushing abilities. As seen in multiple other posts, I don't give experience points out, so using them as a 'cost' doesn't make any sense. Any ideas here?

Use a Fate Point.

 

[Arkobla Conn]

Raven

The cheesecake reference was really a poor attempt at humor, since one of the Mongoose folks a long time ago made reference to the 'count' in one of the early books. You weren't on the board at the time.

I also agree, this is one of the best, most useful of the sourcebooks from a game/rule perspective.

As far as your arrow is concerned...I surrender!! *puts glasses on* You wouldn't hurt a guy who has admitted guilt, surrendered and has glasses on would you??

Vincent

The fate point may very well be appropriate. My group has often wanted to use them in a way other than being left for dead, but I've been a bit resistant to it. I like it!

As far as the combo's are concerned, I like the concept very much. I think that upon reaching a certain level, I may award something like an extra feat (selected by the GM) for sticking with a concept like this for your character. The feat will differ by 'new combo' but will augment the classes instead of going against. I'm thinking 4th level.

Well done on the book!

 

[DasClay]

In my game I have a Rouge that says he dosent belive in fate, His character concept was " people who belive in fate and not skill will die by what they belive in" I thought it was cool, so he wanted to burn his fate points on Skills and on Feats. I gave him 5skill points=1fate, and 1 feat=2 fate. This was done at 1st lvl, but when ever he earns fate points, he must burn them. if he gets more than 3 fate points, he sloowly starts to belive in something other than himself.

He also doesnt have or follow a God, nor does he have a code of honor.... dont know if you like this hate it, or if it even helps you, but it worked for me,and my player is happy

 

[Raven Blackwell]

All right, I relent- besides I'm not really hungry. :eases bowstring but remains wary:

As for Fate points- I don't use them. [:shock:] I don't believe in people knowing just how many times they can cheat the reaper. I let the dice fall where they may. The PC casualties in the beginning of the campaign were horrific [75%] but the one surviving character and the next string learned to be very, very careful and use cooperative tatics. [I reamed them because they all stared doing 'their own thing' in the last battle. The bad guys were organized and well equipped. It was horrible to behold]

As for gods, demons, angels, etc. I say that they're all the same. Outsiders who help a tribe are their gods, ones who eat them are demons and those that leave them alone are engnamic 'spirits'. As for 'social' gods like Mitra and Bori, the consensus is that they are likely inventions of mere men and the only power is psychological and learned sorcery which could come from any source.

As for the cost of 'pushing it' I though of an easy one- a sprained back. 8)

Raven

 

[slaughterj]

In my game I have a Rouge that says he dosent belive in fate, His character concept was " people who belive in fate and not skill will die by what they belive in" I thought it was cool, so he wanted to burn his fate points on Skills and on Feats. I gave him 5skill points=1fate, and 1 feat=2 fate. This was done at 1st lvl, but when ever he earns fate points, he must burn them. if he gets more than 3 fate points, he sloowly starts to belive in something other than himself.

He also doesnt have or follow a God, nor does he have a code of honor.... dont know if you like this hate it, or if it even helps you, but it worked for me,and my player is happy

While certainly your choice, I wouldn't advocate doing that. Philosophically, regardless whether the character believes in fate or not, they system provides for it so it exists and therefore applies and works regardless of the character's belief (e.g., "somehow, in spite of your belief of assured death after being cut down in battle, you find yourself waking in severe pain..." and a Fate Point is spent). Pragmatically, Fate Points provide a way to round off the roughness of a d20 system's randomness (e.g., compared with a bell curve 3d6), and enable a character to survive to fight another day when rolls go bad (and Conan system not providing much healing/resurrection). Fate Points are designed in the system for many significant purposes, and changing that isn't necessarily a good idea.

 

[Arkobla Conn]

In my game I have a Rouge that says he dosent belive in fate, His character concept was " people who belive in fate and not skill will die by what they belive in" I thought it was cool, so he wanted to burn his fate points on Skills and on Feats. I gave him 5skill points=1fate, and 1 feat=2 fate. This was done at 1st lvl, but when ever he earns fate points, he must burn them. if he gets more than 3 fate points, he sloowly starts to belive in something other than himself.

He also doesnt have or follow a God, nor does he have a code of honor.... dont know if you like this hate it, or if it even helps you, but it worked for me,and my player is happy

While certainly your choice, I wouldn't advocate doing that. Philosophically, regardless whether the character believes in fate or not, they system provides for it so it exists and therefore applies and works regardless of the character's belief (e.g., "somehow, in spite of your belief of assured death after being cut down in battle, you find yourself waking in severe pain..." and a Fate Point is spent). Pragmatically, Fate Points provide a way to round off the roughness of a d20 system's randomness (e.g., compared with a bell curve 3d6), and enable a character to survive to fight another day when rolls go bad (and Conan system not providing much healing/resurrection). Fate Points are designed in the system for many significant purposes, and changing that isn't necessarily a good idea.

I agree with this position very much... Fate points are the GM's tool, not the players. With that comment, and using them as a cost for pushing the ability limit, it gives some of that back to the player. They are shortening their life span as it were.

Given that, I think I still may be seeking a cost...

 

[DasClay]

But like you say and I quote

"Philosophically, regardless whether the character believes in fate or not, they system provides for it so it exists and therefore applies and works regardless of the character's belief (e.g., "somehow, in spite of your belief of assured death after being cut down in battle, you find yourself waking in severe pain..." and a Fate Point is spent)."

Think of it as a direct defiance of the very thing that you are saying, think of it as there is nothing to belive in, there is no after life, no Gods, just yourself... think of a fictional character that belived only in his abilites, not in something untangable. And remember the PC asked for this, It wasnt my Idea, I actully tryed to talk him out of it, and so did the players, calling him silly for it... But the part about gaming isnt how realistic you can make it, its how much fun you have doing it. So if he thinks he can do it on skill alone, then so be it.

And what kinda D&D stuff is that anyway, I mean If you know you have a fate point in the bank, and you will be left for dead, why not take a chance? Why not attack the Line of Gunderland pikemen? (PCs metagaming)

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

And what kinda D&D stuff is that anyway, I mean If you know you have a fate point in the bank, and you will be left for dead, why not take a chance? Why not attack the Line of Gunderland pikemen? (PCs metagaming)

To me it seems that trading in fate points for a feat or skill points is a form of metagaming.

I don't think "fate" in Conan is contingent on belief, it just happens.

Conan himself has got to be the luckiest (fate blest) character in Sword and Sorcery, and he is very self reliant and stoic in not calling to Crom or the other gods for help.

I think you should allow a PC to role play his character however he wants, but I wouldn't use it as an excuse to get more feats/skills.

 

[slaughterj]

But like you say and I quote

"Philosophically, regardless whether the character believes in fate or not, they system provides for it so it exists and therefore applies and works regardless of the character's belief (e.g., "somehow, in spite of your belief of assured death after being cut down in battle, you find yourself waking in severe pain..." and a Fate Point is spent)."

Think of it as a direct defiance of the very thing that you are saying, think of it as there is nothing to belive in, there is no after life, no Gods, just yourself... think of a fictional character that belived only in his abilites, not in something untangable. And remember the PC asked for this, It wasnt my Idea, I actully tryed to talk him out of it, and so did the players, calling him silly for it... But the part about gaming isnt how realistic you can make it, its how much fun you have doing it. So if he thinks he can do it on skill alone, then so be it.

Plenty of people defy the cops, that does mean it works, and they get a beatdown from it. Conan himself doesn't have much belief in the Gods, and certainly doesn't believe Crom provides any assistance, but he still gets Fate points under the system.

And what kinda D&D stuff is that anyway, I mean If you know you have a fate point in the bank, and you will be left for dead, why not take a chance? Why not attack the Line of Gunderland pikemen? (PCs metagaming)

You are not fully understanding the role of the Fate Point. If you as the GM run the game and don't fudge die rolls, PCs will occasionally get wacked in combat. (In the case of your PC intentionally having no Fate Points, for the typical GM, they might feel pressure to fudge a little in their favor to avoid killing them, which is unfair to the other PCs who don't need the same treatment.) PCs can minimize getting killed through planning, and as their Fate Points diminish (as long as you, the GM, don't give them away like candy), they will realize they need to tighten up. PCs should learn from their mistakes, and not want to unduly risk using up Fate Points on a whim, because soon enough, that will result in death. Fate Points are just enough to allow a character to occasionally take a chance (this is action adventure after all), but not to flaunt their invulnerability because they have only a limited number of Fate Points. Finally, Fate Points allow the GM to put the PCs in situation of overwhelming odds, getting them to all be "left for dead" and run interesting scenarios from that point forward - something that can't be done for the PC intentionally with no Fate Points.

If I had a PC who wanted to take your route and not believe in Fate and have no Fate Points, I would say "fine", but then I would keep the Fate Points hidden from him and use them as appropriate and not give any benefit for the loss of control, since they are so few and so infrequently used that they'd be used by the PC or the GM at the same point most likely anyway.

 

[DasClay]

Well bottom line is, I decided to try something differnet, and Im seeing how it works, And its my Opinion. I understand perfectly how fate points work, and so the the PCs. They also understand that I dont pull punches, and I dont talor my worldy locations to there lvl (ie, not everyone you bump into will be your lvl or less). Im just exploring options, but I see that I use the rules as guildliness, not as the law, and some seem to think im wrong in doing so...

Im sure everyone has house rules, they add and getrid of and im trying this one, Not everyone has a stellar Gaming group to DM for. I have a bunch of blood thursty, players, two rules lawyers, and 2 metagamers from hell, so I do the best I can.

But, I thank you for you opinions.

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

DasClay,

In another thought on the topic, if you look at the Iranstani, they have the same fatalistic "not trusting in fate" attitude as the PC you described. How fate points are handled for that race is they start with one less (2), and they need to beat a DC 10 on a flat d20 roll to even use a fate point. If a player wants to play a fatalistic character, that would be one way to approach it.

Consider a non metagamer who plays an Iranstani, and your metagamer who trades in his fate points for skills/feats. They are both roll playing that same character concept, are equally fate point challenged, but one has a significant advantage over the other.

I agree that the rules are guidelines, and the only law is the DM's (yours), but when making rules changes and house rules, you always introduce a risk of unbalancing the game system.

On the other hand, one thing that you said was key, and that was that you players are happy with the rules. That is what counts.

 

[slaughterj]

Well bottom line is, I decided to try something differnet, and Im seeing how it works, And its my Opinion. I understand perfectly how fate points work, and so the the PCs. They also understand that I dont pull punches, and I dont talor my worldy locations to there lvl (ie, not everyone you bump into will be your lvl or less). Im just exploring options, but I see that I use the rules as guildliness, not as the law, and some seem to think im wrong in doing so...

Im sure everyone has house rules, they add and getrid of and im trying this one, Not everyone has a stellar Gaming group to DM for. I have a bunch of blood thursty, players, two rules lawyers, and 2 metagamers from hell, so I do the best I can.

But, I thank you for you opinions.

Hope it works out, and it's an interesting scenario to hear about, so thanks for posting, never know when something someone does may be of interest to others. My posts were more of why I wouldn't allow it, not because of being a rules stickler, but because of perceived importance to keeping that system intact.