PT, Blue Shift

[MongooseMatt]

I can see a very good case for anti tailing ordinance, in particular for the less nimble heavy fighters but I suspect this will have a more limited accuracy.

A problem here is that you are removing a deliberate weakness in such fighters.

As I said, a 'drop' defence out the back is a good possibility, but I really don't want to punish players who manage to get on someone's tail.

Turrets on fighters will be a possibility, but they will very much be in the Defiant category, better used as attack fighters.

 

[rcbecker1]

There are alot of special manuevers that pilots can make to give them an advantage or to take one away such as Engage Reheat, Force Overshoot, Jink, Snap Turn which all could be done in space. This gives the feel of the cat and mouse chase.

 

[rcbecker1]

Matt are there going to be options for different warhead types on the listed types of missles such as:
Griffin Long Range Missile being able to drop accurate +1 and adding AP or just add AP for additional cost?

also is there going to be any kind of rotary or multi missile launchers that can fire a second or third missle?

Sorry about the picture sizes. Examples

 

[rcbecker1]

Recon Pod
Cost: 3,000 G Slot: Hardpoint IV
An extremely sophisticated piece of equipment, the recon pods packs a range of sensor arrays and battle computers dedicated to observation, analysis and electronic warfare.

A fighter carrying a recon pod gains the Recon trait. In addition, every Recon Pod carried by a squadron grants it a +1 bonus to its Initiative rolls.

I dont see the point I have to give up a missle slot to gain a +1 to intiative? This should fit in the standard equipment slot why would I ever give up a precious missle slot to have this. Since the fighters that use alot of missle slots shoot them once then rely on one or two weapons to survive after there missles are gone. giving up such a precious slot seems a mistake to me.
Not to mention 3000 credits (Gs) for a +1 already seems to exspensive to me.

 

[rcbecker1]

Electronic Countermeasures are the basic defense from missles? Did I miss any other specific counters to missles?

 

[Old timer]

The point of the recon pod is that besides the +1 initiative bonus is the recon trait which allows the fighter to perform one of the special recon abilities, jamming, hacking and electronic warfare. I think that justifies its cost and the using of a missile hard point.

 

[rcbecker1]

The point of the recon pod is that besides the +1 initiative bonus is the recon trait which allows the fighter to perform one of the special recon abilities, jamming, hacking and electronic warfare. I think that justifies its cost and the using of a missile hard point.

Sorry I missed that jumping back and forth between pages. Ill probably make a cheat sheet putting all the specail Traits and Equipment rules in one place for easy reference.
Ray

 

[GamerDude]

Also I can't imagine someone spending a ton of G's on a heavy fighter laden with weapons, and give up a spot for a recon pod. You don't best observe a battle or conflict when deep in the middle of it (Hurricane/Storm Hunters aircraft being an exception).

As I took it, recon craft are small inexpensive and stay the hell out of the way of the fight so they can perform recon/command&control/counter measure operations.

 

[rcbecker1]

Launch Drone!
Pilot Check: Automatic
Effect: The fighter makes the calculations to programme and launch an automated drone. The ship must have at least one drone available in order to perform this Special Manoeuvre.

I cant seem to find the drones for this rule does anyone know where it is in the rules?

 

[rcbecker1]

Also I can't imagine someone spending a ton of G's on a heavy fighter laden with weapons, and give up a spot for a recon pod. You don't best observe a battle or conflict when deep in the middle of it (Hurricane/Storm Hunters aircraft being an exception).

As I took it, recon craft are small inexpensive and stay the hell out of the way of the fight so they can perform recon/command&control/counter measure operations.

I agree with you on this one GD.
I, could see a recon/ Jamming (drone) being used as equipment if not expensive that could be deployed or launched early as the battle pursues or if tailed maybe out the rear as discussed before. Maybe a one shot.
Another option is a peice of equipment that gives you one effect but not as powerful and still cheap.
Then as you say a light recon fighter that is powerful in those effects but not in weapons since fighting is not its main weapon concern. (this fits the rules we have now in my opinion) The best way I see to use it is like you said create a light cheap fighter designed for this to support your squadron. But I myself cant see that as an early buy for me since resources are tight

Another thought is that the big fighters are dressed out as attack or support fighters. Making it so you have to use lots of Gun Pods in order in order to create fighters that arent missle platforms. I think the pods should be used for some mods but not needing to buy 8 of them to change the fighter into a gun ship

Are there intentions to create some big guns to go into the lvl 3 and 4 hard points? Im thinking something similar to the chain guns or what ever there called on the American A-10s.

 

[Dave Chase]

This might sound kind of silly to most but

You need to have a rule/clarification that figthers can only travel forward. (unless you have special equipment)

The rules are designed with that in mind but I do not see that in the actual rules (unless I missed it, sorry, I did a fast read today on the rules).

Why, do you need this clarification, because an overtly smart player will turn his fighter facing backwards while traveling in a direction (space movement don't you know) and then the tailing fighter now has a head to head situation but will have difficulty catching the lead fighter besides being shot at with all the lead figthers weapons.

There are no sudden stops in space, but you do have some special traits that allow tighter turns, so (thinking out loud here):

Why not allow a fighter with out those special traits (using the agility for example) to attempt the same feat but at a minus to chance. If they fail, there is a little d6 chart for what happens

1 Cranked it too hard, you are now in a flat spin, roll for correction each turn at -3 until control is re-established. No shooting allowed from this fighter until control is back.
2 Turn succeeded, but pilot blacks out for 6-(pilot skill) turns and the fighter is adrift in last heading
3 Fail partly, figther frame twisted, -1 to all pilot rolls for rest of the battle (accumlative), 1/2 of the attempted turn is completed (90 becomes 45)
4 Fail partly, fighter fails to make the turn but accelerates up one range, if already at fast, fighter is out of control for 6-(pilot skill) turns
5 Complete fail, Engines blow out, continues on last heading doing a slow spin (45 degrees each phase) roll pilot skill -2 for restarting the engines
6 Complete fail, Engines blow out, continues on last heading doing a fast spin (90 degrees each phase) roll pilot skill -4 for restarting engines


Special maneuver: Barrel Roll (FlipFlop, YoYo)
Pilot skill check 8+ and opposed
The lead pilot (A) who is being tailed by another pilot (B) attempts to loop over/under the tailing pilot (B) and now becomes the tailing pilot (A). Lead pilot (A) must make skill check to complete the maneuver. If failed, the tailing pilot (B) gains +2 to any attacks this turn. No change to pilot (A) position.
If the lead pilot (A) makes the skill check, both pilots (A & B) now make an opposed pilot check. If the tailing pilot (B) wins, move both fighters back 3 inches along their line of travel. Pilot (B) now has a +1 to any attacks this turn.
If the lead pilot makes the skill check and wins the opposed check, move his fighter behind pilot (B) fighter no closer than 3 to a maximum of 5 inches. Pilot (A) now has a +2 to any attacks this turn.


Dave Chase

 

[rcbecker1]

I was thinking of something similar from fighter games but can this happen in space without atmosphere and can these fighters move like regular planes. I also like the suggestion from Gamer dude about the Bab5 fighters. Maybe adding manuevering pods and a smaller weapon to each for radical turns and such.
a fighter with 4 hard points IV could use 4 pods to allow radical turns. sacrificing fire power for major agility in dog fights.

 

[GamerDude]

ok...

There are two basic types of movement/propulsion that I'm familiar with:
- Newtonian
- Inertialess

Intertialess is what we see in Star Wars, Star Trek, even Firefly/Serenity. Ships instantly jump to whatever speed they want, or come to a sudden stop (almost like taking foot off the gas on a car). They bank like aircraft flying in an atmosphere and such.

Newtonian - well aircraft work just fine in atmo, and again that is what has been copied for sooo many scifi shows, movies, books. Aircraft use thrust, lift, weight, drag. They can't fly backwards because the wings don't work that way, they can't come to a stop because thrust pushing the plane forward creates lift over the wings, etc (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift_(force))

(looking now at again, B5 and BSG-2nd version) But in space, we don't have that gravitational pull to fight against, no atmo to create lift over wings. If you are traveling on a vector (direction) and wish to make a right turn (90 degrees) you turn the craft (with thrusters) and change the direction of your thrust, which will cause a change in the vector of your speed eventually you are traveling the direction you want to go.

well, if we were using Newtonian physics yes, we could hit the maneuvering thrusters, flip over, fire backwards while our engines actually slowed us down. Go watch the original pilot/miniseries for the newer BSG from SciFi. There is a scene where Apollo and Starbuck do just that.

Why, do you need this clarification, because an overtly smart player will turn his fighter facing backwards while traveling in a direction (space movement don't you know) and then the tailing fighter now has a head to head situation but will have difficulty catching the lead fighter besides being shot at with all the lead figthers weapons.

this is a more complicated version of what I was talking about - using weapons that could fire to the rear to shoot at a tailing enemy fighter - and was solidly told I was basically an idiot for considering it. The "powers who wish to be" have spoken that a fighter may "not" fire back at a trailing enemy.

 

[MongooseMatt]

using weapons that could fire to the rear to shoot at a tailing enemy fighter - and was solidly told I was basically an idiot for considering it.

I hope you don't think that was what I was saying - I was trying to explain why, though it makes perfect sense in terms of technology, it is not always useful to translate that into a game...

 

[MongooseMatt]

This might sound kind of silly to most but

You need to have a rule/clarification that figthers can only travel forward.

You see, this is why we have playtesters

 

[katadder]

as its space though you should seriously consider some rules to allow the BSG/B5 fighter spin and keep going same direction backwards. thats one of the best/most iconic manoeuvres in fighter combat from sci-fi series.

could be done with a simple mark/arrow on front of the base reflecting direction of travel but allow the fighter to face any direction after at least one turn going forwards. cant make turns etc until going forwards again but can face the fighter in any direction as long as you are happy going in a straight line.

 

[MongooseMatt]

We thought about it but a) we want to keep things simple and b) we wanted to retain the feel of 'fast' fighter combat, a la Star Wars.

 

[katadder]

only reason star wars never did it was because it was made in 70s.
also my idea is simple, literally 2 points of reference on the model/base and with your ball socket stands its even easier.

 

[Dave Chase]

Possibly a better explaination is that the figther craft (the vessels themselves) are not designed or capable of some these extreme maneuvers. That is why some are agile and some are tough.

Having extra thrusters or maneuver jets as add on in place of some of the equipment slots, would be acceptable but, still make it a hard to accomplish maneuver.

Also make the failed attempt of such give some harsh negatives to the future of that fighter in combat.

If you look at my suggestions, I try to keep the feel of the action as Matt said they wanted, allow the potential for the 'realistic' actions, yet make it very difficult to successfully accomplish unless you are an ace of ace's pilot. Even then the craft might take some damage.

Dave Chase

 

[katadder]

hmm for B5 mod or BSG mod not even aces. B5 pilots of star furies have it as almost a standard manoeuvre.