Psion Career pg229: Considering a House Rule about new attempts for Talents

[Yenaldlooshi]

"if the Psion gains the skill for a talent they do not yet possess, they may attempt another roll to learn that talent"

The problem with this is that if you apply this learning DM to that check per page 228:
"-1 Per previous talent acquisition check"

Then this part of the rule on pg229 that allows a recheck becomes meaningless because all checks would automatically have a -3 to -4 DM because why wouldn't you try to roll for every power at testing? Why wait?

I am thinking of a rule that states:

"if the Psion gains the skill for a talent they do not yet possess, they may attempt another roll to learn that talent, applying the same learning DM for the talent, but instead of -1 per previous check, they will instead have a DM of -1 per previous talent acquired already"

This means they have a real second chance at that missing talent if they only have 1 or 2, they wont need massive record keeping of previous attempts that failed during PSI testing or other attempts, but it does help prevent them from just getting all 5 powers easily.

Does anyone see a problem with having such a change in the rule? I mainly just don't want every Psion who rolls a talent they don't have to go "Yay! I don't have that one yet, what? -4 (or -5, -6 -8 if previously rolled)?!? It just seems silly to say they can try to roll it again when there is normally, in almost every case, no chance of such a roll succeeding and thus they would have wasted the skill roll with nothing to show for it. My change only punishes the greedy, not the previously unlucky.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Or maybe just putting a max cap on the negative DM for previous attempts. Like -4 itself. This makes teleportation very difficult, but the other easier ones to become a little difficult with Telepathy to become average if you don't have it.

Again, this is only on the Psion table when you roll a talent you don't already have.

 

[Gavain]

That is pretty much how I play it in my game. I use rules as written when first testing. Ie DM -1 for each previous attempt. Then use DM -1 per talent thereafter. As you say much easier to keep a track of. And also applicable in the game if they come across a chance to pick up a new talent.

 

[To Tha Moon!]

I like that idea.

Don't forget you get to add the PSI attribute bonus to any of those rolls.

 

[Tom B]

Yeh - the rule as written never really sat well with me, because after a while, it would become impossible. Each roll of the dice would add a further -1 to all attempts. Oh wait I missed out on teleportation, I'll have another go, so assuming average PSI stat bonus of zero, that's a -5. For the first attempt, so I'd have to roll 13 on the dice! What's the point? Even Telekinesis would need a 10.

Edited to change the reference to Clairvoyance to Telekinesis

 

[Bense]

It all depends on how easy you want to make it to have Psions with every power running around in your games. The intent of the rule is to make such multiple talent characters more rare.

If you tested for all powers the first time, yes that's a -5 to future attempts to learn them, but you would still have a chance to learn some of the easier powers, like Telepathy, if you missed your first roll to learn it. Also there are at least two ways to improve your PSI in the career, so you could have a higher PSI DM when you have a second chance to learn a talent.

 

[Tom B]

It all depends on how easy you want to make it to have Psions with every power running around in your games. The intent of the rule is to make such multiple talent characters more rare.

If you tested for all powers the first time, yes that's a -5 to future attempts to learn them, but you would still have a chance to learn some of the easier powers, like Telepathy, if you missed your first roll to learn it. Also there are at least two ways to improve your PSI in the career, so you could have a higher PSI DM when you have a second chance to learn a talent.

You may have a higher PSI DM, but you've now had one more attempt, so an extra -1!

I've just realised, I might be reading the rule differently from other people. After you've done your initial training (and tried all 5 talents), your next try is at -5. I had assumed that the time after that was -6. Do other people think it would be -5 or -6?

 

[Bense]

Your first attempt has no penalty.
So let's say I go Teleportation (0), Awareness (-1), Telekinesis (-2), Clairvoyance (-3), Telepathy (-4). I actually have the same target on each power, because of the learning modifiers.

If I join the Psion career and roll a power I didn't get during training I can make another attempt to learn it at -5. If I missed Telepathy during training with the order I used above I actually have nearly the same roll to learn it now. And if I rolled a +1 PSI in my first term and it boosted my PSI DM I actually have the same odds I did during training to learn Telepathy.

 

[Tom B]

I stand corrected it is at -4.

In the example you gave above if your Psi was average (6-8 at +0). You would need to roll 8 roll to on each get getting a talent (averaging two talents). If you missed out on teleportation (the hardest talent to get), any subsequent roll would be at net of -4. Meaning you would need double 6 to get it. Even with Psi now at 9 because you got it up that high, you would have a 1 in 12 chance of getting it, is it worth rolling it because you have a 1 in 36 chance of getting it and all subsequent attempts at talents you don't have will be at further -1.

My point is, the rules as written, under my understanding, mean that after a few subsequent attempts at getting talents, most become beyond the reach of even a double 6.

That might be what is meant to happen.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

It all depends on how easy you want to make it to have Psions with every power running around in your games. The intent of the rule is to make such multiple talent characters more rare.

If you tested for all powers the first time, yes that's a -5 to future attempts to learn them, but you would still have a chance to learn some of the easier powers, like Telepathy, if you missed your first roll to learn it. Also there are at least two ways to improve your PSI in the career, so you could have a higher PSI DM when you have a second chance to learn a talent.

Yes, you would have a chance, but not a chance high enough in most cases to have cost you that entire skill roll. You only get that higher DM once you get up to 9+PSI which puts it in the "could or might not" category.n Maybe a player should be given the choice to attempt the new talent or reroll?

I agree that you want to make every-talent characters rare, but using a bottomless negative DM based on number of attempts is clunky, meta and frankly does not do the job as well or as directly as simply giving a negative DM for talents already received. Honestly, I know it comes from classic rules, but this is a much better way to handle it.

The question is not WHETHER to limit the chances of multi- or All- Talent Psions, it is taken as accepted that this should be the case, the question is to HOW to arrive at the limiter.

If you think -1 DM per previous talent's achieved is not enough, then how about -2 per previous talent? It's still a better method than using -X per previous attempt.

As a bonus; it can come with an in-game explanation about how character's psionic powers can only go down so many more "channels" once a new talent is achieved. You can't really come up with an in-game explanation why previous die rolls make it more difficult on future die rolls that does not sound meta.

 

[ottarrus]

The way I read the rules [and run my game] is to apply -1 DM for EVERY single roll to gain any Talent. You may attempt a Talent multiple times, but each roll accumulates that DM.
For example:
Bob is in Psionic Training and has gained the Telepathy and Awareness Talents in two rolls. He now wishes to attempt Teleportation. His PSI Strength is 9 [DM +1]. His total DM for the roll is [PSI +1, Learning DM +/-0, previous rolls -2] is a total of -1. Whether he succeeds or not, should he attempt Telekiniesis, he would roll -3. If later in his career he gets another chance to gain a Talent, those negative DMs continue to stack up.

PSI drugs [Booster, Double, or Special] do not help with the Talent rolls, btw.

All of this serves to make Psionics another skill set, like Gunnery or Gambling, rather than creating some übermensch Jedi-wannabe. HOWEVER, if you want an NPC to be an accomplished psion you need not go through all that. Psions with great levels of skill and a wide range of Talents are out there as protagonists and antagonists, especially Zhodani, but they can be designed without going through the character generation process.

 

[Bense]

I agree that you want to make every-talent characters rare, but using a bottomless negative DM based on number of attempts is clunky, meta and frankly does not do the job as well or as directly as simply giving a negative DM for talents already received. Honestly, I know it comes from classic rules, but this is a much better way to handle it.

Doing a "-1 per talent gained" rule will result in more characters with multiple psionic talents. Like I said, the goal of the mechanic is to make these rare, which it does. I don't consider it clunky or meta.

Yes this means a psion could roll a skill and then fail the test to gain the talent, and therefore miss a chance of acquiring a skill level. As it happens there are plenty of ways to fail to get skills during character generation. On the other hand, this is the only way to get a second chance at learning psionic powers, even if it's not a particularly good chance.

If you want to avoid potential wasted skill rolls, don't pick the skill table that has lots of skills you don't have the talents for.

 

[To Tha Moon!]

I stand corrected it is at -4.

I don't know anyone who stands at their computer.

"I bet you wish you stood in bed."
- said by a cranky old country space Doctor to his Vulcan friend.

The Vulcan's reply in the novel (which was cut from the movie)
"Vulcans sleep lying down, Doctor."

 

[AndrewW]

I don't know anyone who stands at their computer.

 

[Tom B]

I don't know anyone who stands at their computer.

"I bet you wish you stood in bed."
- said by a cranky old country space Doctor to his Vulcan friend.

The Vulcan's reply in the novel (which was cut from the movie)
"Vulcans sleep lying down, Doctor."

Ok I sat corrected.

 

[To Tha Moon!]

I forgot about the standing desks.

 

[Arkathan]

I forgot about the standing desks.

Not surprising. They are like New Years resolutions.
If you get it in January, you are sitting at it full time by February.
By March, you've forgotten that it can even be raised at all.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[J. L. Brown]

Not to throw explosive fuel on the fire here -- especially since I am away from my books at the moment -- but I think the 'Re-Test with penalty' only applies to rolling talents on the general skills table. For basic training, you get every skill from the specific branch-skill table without rolling -- so these are automatically acquired at skill-0 in the first term. Generally, that is only two or three (and you do not get to choose which ones) talents, though.

Found the reference; page 229 of the Core Rules Update 2022; in two paragraphs. First:

"Unlike other careers, a Psion takes skills from the appropriate Specialist table instead of the Service Skills table during basic training."

and second:

"The Psion must still roll to acquire talents when they determine their PSI. When rolling on the Service Skills table, if the Psion gains the skill for a talent they do not yet possess, they may attempt another roll to learn that talent."

Since the skills in Basic Training are neither 1} not the result of a skill roll, and 2} not skills taken from the Service Skills list; these talents should be acquired at skill-0 without rolling. Since they are acquired without rolling, it might be argued that they do NOT increase the penalty for attempting to acquire subsequent Talents. On the one hand, that might be a bit power-gamerish for some folks; on the other hand these two or three Basic Training Talents represent the efforts of four years of training and daily employment in roles where these talents are routinely required, as opposed to just four (rather hurried) months of generic testing.

 

[Bense]

Hmmm.

The rules say that you can enter the Psion career by rolling the life event that lets you test your psionic strength. That life event says "You encounter a Psionic institute. You may immediately test your Psionic Strength and, if you qualify, take the Psion career in your next term."

The Psionic rules say that when a character encounters a Psionic Institute during play (after character generation) they can be tested for a cost of Cr5,000 and two weeks. PSI is 2D-terms served. If the Traveller has 1+ PSI they can be trained. Training requires four months and Cr1,000,000, and during training is when the Traveller may attempt to learn the common psionic talents with the DM-1 per check attempted and the talent learning modifiers.

If they learn a talent they gain the psionic skill for it at skill level 0.

The rules also say that a Psion must still roll to acquire talents when they determine their PSI. According to the Life Event, determining PSI happens before they enter the Psion career. So that implies the following order:

1) You roll the Life Event of encountering a Psionic institute while serving a term in another career during character generation
2) You roll to determine your PSI
3) If you have more than 0 PSI you roll to determine talents (gaining level-0 skill for each talent you successfully learn)
4) You decide if you want to enter the Psion career, and roll to qualify
5) If you qualify, you undergo basic training, gaining ONE specialist skills at level-0 (as this is your second career, you only receive one 0-level skill for Basic Training)

A few questions need to be answered (and these are all my answers, not official answers):

Q: If you roll the Life Event, do you have to pay for testing and training as you would when encountering a Psionic institute during play?
A: No. Otherwise such a Traveller would be entering play with a Cr1,005,000 debt. The Life Event doesn't say anything about having to pay the normal fees for testing and training. The fees are presumably waived, paid, or otherwise bypassed at the time you roll the Life Event. This is not the only time a Traveller can gain a benefit during character generation that is worth a great deal of money without also going into debt.

Q: Can you enter the Psion career without rolling the Life Event that leads to it?
A: The Referee can presumably allow a Traveller to attempt to qualify for the Psion career as their first career (perhaps one of their parents was a Psion and knows where an institute is, or they are from a non-Imperial world where psionics are tolerated). In that event Psionic testing and learning talents would also take place before rolling to qualify to enter the career and would probably not require the normal fees. Effectively the Referee has decided that the Traveller started with the Life Event that allows PSI testing and entry to the Psion career.

Q: If you have 0 PSI during testing, or fail to learn any talents during testing, can you still enter the Psion career?
A: Yes, if you really want to. The roll for qualification is modified by PSI, but there is no minimum PSI listed. It would be a difficult roll, but it's possible. With luck you might even be able to increase your PSI above 0 and learn talents.

Q: Can you receive training in the psionic skills without learning the underlying talent?
A: Yes. The skill without the talent cannot be used to perform psionic powers, but it indicates formal training and knowledge of how the talent operates. Even someone with PSI 0 could learn psionic skills, if they wish.

Q: How are psionic skills treated during Basic Training for the Psion career?
A: If you have already learned one of the psionic skills listed on the specialist table because you learned the talent during PSI testing, there is no additional effect. As with any other career, if you already have level-0 in a skill from your background then Basic Training doesn’t improve that skill. Note that most players don’t take background skills that they expect to gain during basic training in the career they intend to enter.

If you do not know the underlying talent for the skill in question then you may make another attempt to learn it, subject to the talent learning modifiers and the -1 DM per prior attempt to learn any psionic skill. If you succeed you also gain the skill at level-0. Or you may choose to take the skill at level-0 without making an attempt to learn the talent.

A potential strategy: If you want a particular talent and fail in your first attempt to learn it, you might choose not to make any attempts to learn any of the other talents. This will prevent the -1 DM per prior attempt to learn a talent from growing. Then you choose a Psion career specialty that has the skill for the desired talent on its specialty table, and you will have a guaranteed second chance to learn the desired talent at only a -1DM compared to your first attempt.