Proposal: The White Star - The Knife Fight Variant

[Hindsight]

Stealth and Super AP make a lot of difference.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Stealth and Super AP make a lot of difference.

Understandable, but does it make as much difference as the beam? The WS is also faster, which is a big difference when it comes to getting away to hide, CBD, skindancing (read free ram) also are big differences.

The WS can also JP bomb whereas the S.Scout can't.

Stealth 5vs4 because of range is kinda.. fudgey, stealth 5 lets the scout get in range, but yes, once its in combat it is really only stealth 4. Its not like this thing can sit back and pound on you.

For balance reasons, I think the comparison to the S.Scout is a very good example. You have to admit, they are EXTREMELY close to one another. They fill the same roll in their respective fleets, have very similar or comparable traits. (Of course, you could argue that the WS has 2x the repair because of AA)

Now, where does the balance lie? I don't think anyone is going to argue that the S.Scout is overpowered or underpowered. IMO it is a rather well balanced ship.

 

[Methos5000]

Stealth and Super AP make a lot of difference.

Understandable, but does it make as much difference as the beam? The WS is also faster, which is a big difference when it comes to getting away to hide, CBD, skindancing (read free ram) also are big differences.

The WS can also JP bomb whereas the S.Scout can't.

Stealth 5vs4 because of range is kinda.. fudgey, stealth 5 lets the scout get in range, but yes, once its in combat it is really only stealth 4. Its not like this thing can sit back and pound on you.

For balance reasons, I think the comparison to the S.Scout is a very good example. You have to admit, they are EXTREMELY close to one another. They fill the same roll in their respective fleets, have very similar or comparable traits. (Of course, you could argue that the WS has 2x the repair because of AA)

Now, where does the balance lie? I don't think anyone is going to argue that the S.Scout is overpowered or underpowered. IMO it is a rather well balanced ship.

You also have to consider the S. Scout doesn't have crew it can run away and comeback fully repaired given enough time, the whitestar can only repair damage, what good does SR do if the Whitestar has 10 damage but is down to 1 crew?

It auto repairs crits so will never be without weapons for long nor will it suffer the dreaded permanent losses of the Vital system hits.

The scout also has the advantage of shadow maneuverability if it needs to get away is can turn up to 90 degrees either way and move 20" a Whitestar only exceeds this if it APTE but then it can only go straight (and must be able to perform SA).

I would also argue that while the WS are maneuverable it is nothing compared to 10" SM, WS don't even come close to that kind of maneuverability. To be able to pick a spot within 10" of your ship and move there and face whatever direction you want is a huge bonus.

They Shadows also have the highest initiative score so more often then not they can make their opponents move first.

If it were 5 S. Scouts vs. 5 WS (current WS mind you not even the proposed ones) I would pick the Shadows to win every time.

Comparing the 2 in a head to head matchup the Scout will almost always beat a WS, how will giving the WS 8" guns change that?

The problem with toying with the weapon ranges is that you have to consider how this will affect combat against every ship in the game.

8" guns means the Narn and Abbai can now hit the WS with their (rather large) secondaries. It also means that the S. Scout and the Vree (especially with their currently broken SA) as just a couple of examples are just gonna laugh when a WS shows up on the table.

CBD and Skindancing are currently broken as well. Fix those and you won't see them abused as much. JPB has it owns issues as well (like why is it even in the game, its a tactic with no defense it shouldn't be here, the Minbari have a Crew duty that reflects JPBs that should be sufficient).

 

[Jetbaker]

Let me start off by saying I am not making judegements just trying to help the discussion and point out things I think are off.

While it is true that the Scout gets Self repair and can also repair crits, I would argue that this is not always a for sure thing. Usually when an opponent does enough damage to warrant the scout to run and repair it seldom gets the opportunity. Most players anymore know to beat down on one target for the Shadows and kill it first. Also I keep in mind that for all their fancy gifts they have some of the worst negatives. Pinning is in the show and should be in the game. Getting a ship pinned just sucks as it can pretty much do nothing and is only alive at your opponents leisure. We also cant jump into and out of combat. I wont go on anymore than that but I just wanted to show that for every positive we also had some mean negatives.

I agree with what Methos5000 said about the Vree SAand what impact that could have on a Whitestar. Do something similar to what the Shadows have now for their struggle againts the PSiCorps, and I think that would fix the problem.

I still think 8 inches is a good fix.

 

[Methos5000]

Well part of my post was pointing out that some of the techniques that make WS really scary, CBD Skindancing and JPB, are all in my opinion broken already, if those aren't fixed it doesn't matter if the WS has a 2" beam people will still complain about them.

8" is another area where I disagree, I think 8" is giving up too much when you consider how much extra firepower is already being brought to bear on them by lowering it to 12".

As far as comparisons go using the Rock, Paper, Scissors example the Shadow Scout is a Rock to WS Scissors, giving the WS 8" guns will make that Rock a heck of alot bigger.

Maybe when triggy gets back he can run his Ship Calculator on it at 12" and at 8" and see what it does to the numbers (Which I am assuming is calculated since it seems to take into account everything). Not that it gives a perfect example of a balanced ship but generally his numbers have represented how the ships stack up to each other pretty well.

 

[Da Boss]

Stealth and Super AP make a lot of difference.

so do Shields but then so do Accurate, Dodge and Adaptive Armour - just to balance also the ability to Close Blast Doors and Concentrate All Firepower - neither of which the Scout can do. I kinda agree with the former but not the latter

Shadow Scout and White Star are both superb Raid level ships different and great.

 

[katadder]

As comments go for dealing with fighters this is BULL. They get a carrier with fighters that have accurate guns so don't make me swear on this forum!

The ISA needs no ally that is the hole problem taking one that compliments them makes the situation worse.

I was told to face 5 raid 5 whitestars so i did. They slaughtered me and the only comments I got where change your ALLY choice! Well mmm if they took a proper ISA fleet they would slaughtered me even quicker.

I'll start with talking about their weakness against fighters. When enemy fighters make their attack runs, their Dodge (arguably one of the best things that these ships have) is ignored.

in answer to a couple of points: yes the ISA get a carrier - at war level and it carries 8 fighters total. so its not the best defense. and at raid you are not likely to get it (unliike your corps motherships with 4 fighters each).

as to fighters ignoring dodge, where did you read this crap? only fighters who ignore dodge are ones with accurate guns.

 

[Da Boss]

or ones with Antifighter -

 

[katadder]

not going to effect a whitestar though DB

 

[Rawwar]

As comments go for dealing with fighters this is BULL. They get a carrier with fighters that have accurate guns so don't make me swear on this forum!

The ISA needs no ally that is the hole problem taking one that compliments them makes the situation worse.

I was told to face 5 raid 5 whitestars so i did. They slaughtered me and the only comments I got where change your ALLY choice! Well mmm if they took a proper ISA fleet they would slaughtered me even quicker.

I'll start with talking about their weakness against fighters. When enemy fighters make their attack runs, their Dodge (arguably one of the best things that these ships have) is ignored.

in answer to a couple of points: yes the ISA get a carrier - at war level and it carries 8 fighters total. so its not the best defense. and at raid you are not likely to get it (unliike your corps motherships with 4 fighters each).

as to fighters ignoring dodge, where did you read this crap? only fighters who ignore dodge are ones with accurate guns.

White Star fighters have accurate guns which was his point. No crap there, its fact. Read what he actually wrote/said.

 

[katadder]

lol right back at you, he was talking about Whitestars weaknesses in the paragraph i quoted, nothing to do with WS fighters.

 

[Rawwar]

Dan's statement:

As comments go for dealing with fighters this is BULL. They get a carrier with fighters that have accurate guns so don't make me swear on this forum!

Your statement:

as to fighters ignoring dodge, where did you read this crap? only fighters who ignore dodge are ones with accurate guns.

Looks pretty clear cut to me. If you'd ever read the Fleet list (which is where we read it funnily enough) you'd know what he said wasn't crap.

Back to you.

 

[Taran]

To be fair, Rawwar, katadder was responding to the comment that suggested that fighters attacking White Stars ignore Dodge. And since the only fighters I am aware of that have Accurate weapons are White Star Fighters...

Well, as I recall, this isn't a discussion about how to defeat the ISA by using the ISA...

 

[Taran]

On the Shadow Scout vs the WS, keep in mind that in larger games the Scout is backed up by full on Shadow Vessels.
The WS only has other WS variants until War (Tara'Lin, Unique, mind you) and the VCD at Armageddon.

You can't just change a single ship and expect the rest of the fleet to fill in the gaps. Especially when that single ship IS the fleet.

 

[katadder]

Dan's statement:

As comments go for dealing with fighters this is BULL. They get a carrier with fighters that have accurate guns so don't make me swear on this forum!

Your statement:

as to fighters ignoring dodge, where did you read this crap? only fighters who ignore dodge are ones with accurate guns.

Looks pretty clear cut to me. If you'd ever read the Fleet list (which is where we read it funnily enough) you'd know what he said wasn't crap.

Back to you.

as taran said was responding to the second part which was about WS defenses. I did respond to Dan as well but quoted 2 people and had 2 paragraphs in my answer. eldiablito said fighters ignore dodge, and thats what I was replying to.
I know WS fighters have accurate, every molecular pulsar in the ISA has accurate. I should know, i run a WS fleet.

on a completely differant note but actually back on topic - the knifefight WS looks unlikely as matt doesnt want such a major change.

 

[Rawwar]

Ah right apologies then, now I know where you’re coming from. That explains my confusion but it’s my fault for not reading it correctly.

No knife fighter can’t say I’m surprised really I don’t it’s that big a change since I’ve just kicked butt with them but....

 

[skavendan]

Nice to know that we waisted all that time game testing.

Aside from my previously obvious comments the another simple yet tactical way to adjust the WS is to make scouting a special action. So they have to chose it or there belovid CBD

 

[katadder]

lol well if testing it is supposed to be published stuff this was just something made up by a player tbh even if it did look good to me and others.

 

[eldiablito]

Wow! Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at the same time (taking care of my newborn and type at the same time)...

I'll start with talking about their weakness against fighters. When enemy fighters make their attack runs, their Dodge (arguably one of the best things that these ships have) is ignored.

I resend the comment about ignoring dodge as my point was somehow twisted up internally while typing... Yes, the accurate weapons of the White Stars and their variants DO ignore enemy fighter dodge scores, but they STILL have a fairly short range where many fighters can fly over the threat zone created by the guns and pick on the vulnerable port, starboard and aft arcs. That was what I was TRYING to say...

 

[Methos5000]

on a completely differant note but actually back on topic - the knifefight WS looks unlikely as matt doesnt want such a major change.

Well thats just great, I get punished because some people sit back at 18" and CBD. What I want to know is why was the change made if both guns fire? For both guns to fire you have to be 10" away, many races can shoot WS at that range and you can't CBD and shoot both guns.

Change the power loss issue to only when they use CBD (consider it diverting more power to the adaptive armor or something) and I'll be fine with it. As it is now, I guess I will proxy my WS as Gunships (only have 2 gunship models but 14 WS models) because I can't fight the way I want to effectively with the current nerf. Whats the point of getting up close and personal risking fire from enemy ships when my main cannon is gonna short out on me half way through firing.

My group never has much of a problem shooting and destroying WS because I do tend to get up closer to fire both guns....now they will still kill WS but I will do less damage to them in exchange......great.

I think all this will do in encourage people to snipe at 18" without CBD they can still avoid most races fire and get full beam dice as normal....all this did was hurt the people to fight up close.

Congrats though we finally have a situation where 1 battle level ship is better then 2 raid ships now.