Proposal: The White Star - The Knife Fight Variant

[katadder]

Nice one Hindsight.

Playtesting time

Anyone know what is the time deadline vs input for P&P

Since Triggy left, I am just not sure. I haven't heard much official word since he left. He is back in a week or so right? I hope we get some word by then, it'll give us at least this week to play test some of the variants, and see if this Knife Fight idea is worth pursuing.

I kind of like the idea. I do think a radical change like this would need extensive playtesting.

I do like this variant of it and think it will work well.
plus it does fit the show as WSs are never stand off and fight ships like they are now. I may even be inclined to lower the range of both weapons to 10" the same as the current molecular pulsars as WSs always seem in range of secondaries when attacking.

lol me and Greg are not good enough no matter how active we are it seems

FYI I did put this idea to matt today, just to keep you in the loop.
other ideas put forward are the increased range on shadow omegas along with possible shields, and maybe a look at secondaries.
possible changes to the corps fighter carrier, a limit on drakh huge hangars on the mothership, track that target returning to previous incarnation and a closer look at narn CBD.

none of these are confirmed or anything yet as like triggy I am just a playtester not matt himself.

 

[skavendan]

Thank you for keeping us in the loop. I plan to post a more full look at my corp suggestions. If some of it gets at least considered I will consider it progress.

 

[Silvereye]

I like the idea of having a bad-ass knife fighter again (I miss my 1e Tigaras). Nice looking idea, and its certainly going to be a fun one to play.

Why worry about the nuances of dodge and All Stop and All Stop and Pivot?

High Energy Turns
The agility of the White Stars has become legendary, and as the Shadow War progressed, the Rangers piloting them began to find out just what limits these craft could be pushed to.

If a Crew Quality check of 9 or more is made, a White Star or White Star II does not have to perform an All Stop! Special Action before performing All Stop and Pivot! Effectively, the White Star has accomplished a vicious banking manoeuvre without killing its speed. It retains its Dodge trait while performing a High Energy Turn.

You can All Stop and Pivot without having to All Stop beforehand, and you get to keep your dodge.

 

[Foxmeister]

Why worry about the nuances of dodge and All Stop and All Stop and Pivot?

Because we were not talking about All Stop and All Stop and Pivot for the WS itself!

Regards,

Dave

 

[Hindsight]

FYI I did put this idea to matt today, just to keep you in the loop.
other ideas put forward are the increased range on shadow omegas along with possible shields, and maybe a look at secondaries.
possible changes to the corps fighter carrier, a limit on drakh huge hangars on the mothership, track that target returning to previous incarnation and a closer look at narn CBD.

I just knew that Triggy was one, as we exchanged some Private Messages, and he brought it up in a recent thread. I wasn't aware that you were one of the five (3) until now, but I know I see your posts all over. Its not a popularity contest, but now I know, and knowing is half the battle, etc, etc.

As to the play testing, I've been re-arranging my thoughts lately, towards giving you guys feedback of the variety that can be more easily acted on. If I propose a speed based initiative system, it may very well be the answer to balance in many cases, but the volume of changes to other ships that would have to take place, I just see that as being too broad, so as I have said in other posts, I'm just trying to give you bites, tidbits you can work with instead of game altering uber fixes, and if you have a preference between the two, let me know.

So the "you in my back ark = death" thing... yea. The -1AD when shooting both weapons, or doing a special action change doesn't change that either. We're still faster, and we can still get behind slow ships. I can't think of any way to change that, without changing everything the White Star is. We're always going to be fast, and always going to be able to go 180. Change our movement styles, and we'll have to balance the ship all over again. I don't think Matt is looking for those kinds of changes, those huge from the ground up changes.

Why am I not asleep? *random swearing*

 

[Foxmeister]

We're still faster, and we can still get behind slow ships. I can't think of any way to change that, without changing everything the White Star is.

8" range guns!

The point is that if you want it to be a knife fighter it needs to get into knife fighting range and 12" isn't for most races - 10" is for several races, and 8" is for virtually everyone. Taking a look at average secondary ranges, you get to:

18" Minbari
12" Vree, Centauri, Brakiri
10" Drakh, Psi-Corp, EA, Pak,
8" Narn, Dilgar, Abbai, Raiders

Of course, there are some races (e.g. Drazi) who are hosed anyway if you can get behind them, but they tend to be quite fast and manoeverable anyway.

It may well be that at 8", the WS starts to die horribly but that can potentially be fixed by adding a few HPs.


Regards,

Dave

 

[Hindsight]

Do we have time to find just the right math of range to HPs? I just know that this book is slated for an October release according to previews, and I'd like to make it as simple as possible to be like "Cool, nerf its range. Done!" and not wind up with some rushed variant that we haven't play tested thuroughly.

Where are all my ISA players? Is 12" too much? Is 8" too major? How many HPs would we need to take it at 8"? If it was 8", would we still be in your back arc driving you crazy? If I have 2" beams, and I'm behind you, and you have no rear arc, you're still screwed =)

 

[skavendan]

Where are all my ISA players.

I ran them over chopped them up and burried them on the moors, would you like me to show you? :twisted:

I agree that the range change could lead to a stat tweak.

 

[Hindsight]

If I'm the last of the ISA players, then at least I'm only making myself look bad when I lose to the Narn.

 

[Foxmeister]

Do we have time to find just the right math of range to HPs? I just know that this book is slated for an October release according to previews, and I'd like to make it as simple as possible to be like "Cool, nerf its range. Done!" and not wind up with some rushed variant that we haven't play tested thuroughly.

Just bear in mind that what *we* are doing here may have absolutely no impact on what turns up in P&P anyway. Thus far all we know is that Katadder has presented the idea of cutting the range of the WS to Matt and it remains to be seen what he does with it.

My point is, working on the assumption that the WS requires a nerf of sorts, the results of any nerf need to be apparent to any opposing fleet. In my opinion (for what it's worth! ), 12" guns won't make sufficient difference to most ISA opponents and therefore the nerf will have failed.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Foxmeister]

If I'm the last of the ISA players, then at least I'm only making myself look bad when I lose to the Narn.

You're losing to the Narn because you're spending 2 Battle FAPs on the Tara'Lin which is pony! Even just 3 WS as the new FAP splits is an infinitely superior purchase.

Regards,

Dave

 

[H]

If I'm the last of the ISA players, then at least I'm only making myself look bad when I lose to the Narn.

I may need to come play you, my ISA players generally crush me, or did till he stopped playing ISA cos he got bored

obviously i always choose a balanced (ish) Narn fleet and not a specific Whitestar killer. After all, the day I do, I know he would take an Ally that laughed at dag kars, smeared them in Mayo and had them as a light snack!

 

[Hindsight]

You're losing to the Narn because you're spending 2 Battle FAPs on the Tara'Lin which is pony! Even just 3 WS as the new FAP splits is an infinitely superior purchase.

I lose to Narn because I spend more time thinking about how I'd paint MY Narn and less about where my White Stars should be pointing.

The Tara'lin is a Sharlin! Every White Star fleet needs a Sharlin! That should just like... be a special rule.... yes.... screw all this balancing crap, I'm going to get ahold of katadder and start promoting the "All ISA Players must take a Tara'lin" change... you watch... twenty seconds later you'll see six Buff the Tara'lin posts by someone other than me (for a change).

I'm not making any sense at this point... its 7am and I have to work at 1:30.

 

[katadder]

i play ISA (amongst other things) and prefer WS carriers over taralins.

 

[Hindsight]

I like the carrier model more than the Gunship, but I just don't believe it'd have ever been made. It doesn't follow the design logic, that it would come out after the Victory. It should look like the Victory, like a smaller Victory, or something. It looks like its trying to be something... something silly.

Its a White Star... and its Pregnant!

I hear the White Star fighter is vicious... but again... those are Blue Stars... they shouldn't exist! It just the recycle of the Fleet Action model into "ok what can we call this." That fact bothers me, as a hobbyist.

I've often wondered if I found a cool model to use as that skirmish ship, if I suddenly wouldn't like it. It has a turret you know! Thats kinda cool. If it wasn't ugly.

I should just play Narn... at least they all look like they're actively born from the same bald mother.

 

[Foxmeister]

I should just play Narn... at least they all look like they're actively born from the same bald mother.

On a serious note, I think you do need to play with a different fleet against a WS heavy ISA fleet (most definitely not yours! ) so that you can see first hand why the general concensus is that the WS is in need of a nerf of some sort.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Da Boss]

My good dear Friend - Join the Republic - we have superb ships all the way upto war (the designer was a little drunk that day) - and attractive women and plentiful drink..............

forget your ISA, eat, drink and be merry.

 

[Hindsight]

Can I paint neat Narn designs on my fleet of the Royal Centauri Republic?

I do like the Adira.... but I like all the big ships. :/

I want a G'Quan! I want it to not suck. I'm needy.

Don't forget, I am the one who said that there should be White Stars for everyone =) Let everyone take em as allies. Problem solved lol.

EDIT - My post count is ridiculous... I bet I'll be a grand mongoose by Saturday morning. Tick tock!

I will admit, that Court Jesters Centauri make me want to paint Centauri... and if you have painted ships, you might as well play em!

 

[McKickaha]

Its not just your post count that's impressive Hindsight, it the speed that you type in the long content. I will have just read a page on one thread then I will see you have added a page to another thread in the time its takes me to read the first one.

 

[McKickaha]

Court Jesters's painting makes you want to collect whatever fleet he paints.