Proposal: The White Star - The Knife Fight Variant

[Hindsight]

um, you know Triggy is just a playtester and not the company owner right? and there are other playtesters on here?

Absolutely, but Triggy has been very open with us on the process, and at least in my time here has had a lot of feedback on these ongoing debates. I'm not saying he is my favorite, I just get the best results with his attitude and being open to discussion.

I actually don't know who the other 2 Magic 5 (now 3) are of the top of my head.

 

[Da Boss]

Greg and Katadder are playtesters - in their sigs

 

[Hindsight]

Remember that if I All Stop, I cannot Dodge.

where does it say that :? - You can not dodge if you are adrift or running adrift - you can dodge it you all stop as you are still moving (you can move upto half speed)

This came up in our local league, and we looked it up, as moving half speed is just normal movement anyway. If you All Stop, and use the All Stop to not move at all, you cannot Dodge, because you did not move. I don't know why anyone using a White Star, would All Stop after moving half distance, as a White Star can already get a 180 anyway.

If you All Stop! without moving, and sit at 12", you do not get Dodge. Is that worded more precisely? =)

Moving at all, still puts you inside secondary range. I'm sure there is an exception or two to this, but I'd wager it is rare.

 

[Hindsight]

Greg and Katadder are playtesters - in their sigs

Aren't we ALL play testers now? =)

Thanks for clearing that up, thats the Greg Smith Greg right?

 

[H]

yes Greg Smith.

 

[Foxmeister]

Remember that if I All Stop, I cannot Dodge. The Range of the Beam now is 18", I am dropping it to 12" in this recomendation as that cuts 6" off our kill radius.

You could all stop with *absolute* impunity if you're behind most Narn vessels at 12" range - it doesn't matter whether you can dodge or not because there will be no incoming fire to dodge. The reduced kill radius means *nothing* IMHO, if you are still outside everyone elses kill radius.

A White Star that sits at 12" is going to get blown to crap, unless the ISA player takes enough Initiative Sinks to let the White Stars move last.

If you're sitting in someones forward arc, yes, but if you're behind them most definitely not. You seem to forget that the vast majority of craft have nowhere near the manoeverability of the WS and can't change arc on a whim. The best they can hope for is either an all stop following by an all stop and pivot, or perhaps a come about but even then a carefully positioned WS would be very hard to get at.

I tend not to do Initiative sinks, even at Battle 5, I like taking the Tara'lin for the Command Boost, and running 3 WS I, 2 Dag'Kar and 3 Blue Stars along side it.

Not a very representative ISA fleet at all I'm afraid, and I can see why you are having issues winning because you are not playing to the strengths of the ISA list. 3 WS in 5 Battle is nowhere near enough.

For the most part though, taking 2 Dag'Kars in an ISA list would be seen by many as cheesy...... however your inclusion of the Tara'Lin brings it back IMHO

Regards,

Dave

 

[Foxmeister]

If you All Stop! without moving, and sit at 12", you do not get Dodge. Is that worded more precisely? =)

You can All Stop! and move 0.1" and still dodge - as far as I'm concerned a ship that moves 0.1" hasn't really moved enough to warrant a dodge.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Foxmeister]

Greg and Katadder are playtesters - in their sigs

Aren't we ALL play testers now? =)

No, there are *the* "Playtesters" (who have Matts ear) and there's the rest of us doing a little "playtesting" (who don't).

Regards,

Dave

 

[Hindsight]

I'll take a G'Quan if they fix it =)

As to the Dag'Kars, blame my league peoples, they set me up with that as my ally following a restock in which we had four on the shelf. Using them as allies has lead me to want to build a Narn fleet, which I will do, since I just love painting that cool design on them.

As to your back arc statements... whats to stop us from doing that now? =)

If we can out maneuver the Narns... good for us. I know those Narn skirmish ships I fought against tonight could have easily come and found me.

Yea, I'm told that I take the Dag'Kar to deal with my lack of anti-fighter. I dunno. Keep in mind I'm new, so much of what I believe, and do, is based on what these old timers at my store tell me is so.

There are no more White Stars in stock, I bought one more, and have that and this fugly Gunship I'm trying to convert into not looking like crap. Ideally, at Battle 5, I'd take a Tara'lin for the first two points, a White Star and 6 Nials for the third, a White Star and 3 Blue Stars for the fourth, and either a White Star and a Dag'Kar or a pair of White Stars as the fifth. I need to paint up two more sets of Nials, and I've been borrowing eldiablitos Sharlin to use as a Tara'lin as the one that AOG shipped me still has not arrived. I want to use the fighters as Interceptors on the White Stars. I still haven't won this game once... but the people I play with have been at it for years =) I even lost my intro game!

 

[Hindsight]

You can All Stop! and move 0.1" and still dodge - as far as I'm concerned a ship that moves 0.1" hasn't really moved enough to warrant a dodge.

I wouldn't allow it. I may be technically out of line, but thats cheese, it goes against the spirit of the game, and I wouldn't be likely to play that person again if they tried to move .1" and still claim full Dodge.

That said, maybe this should be updated, with Dodge in mind. Get some kind of "If you All Stop!" you're coming to a complete stop at the end of your movement, thus you cannot dodge, and count as stationary" or something.

Its almost 4am for me out here in California, I only get to chat with ya'll if I'm up at 3am! Ugh. Good night =)

 

[Da Boss]

Hmm - but you want to use fighters as interceptors and dag'kars :wink: cos they are not cheese? :wink:

Not sure why it would not be able to doge it could be flipping and sumasulting on the spot as it does in the show? (also that it is in the rules............)

 

[Foxmeister]

As to your back arc statements... whats to stop us from doing that now? =)

Nothing at all - it's *exactly* what does happen most of the time. That's the reason why your 12" doesn't work (IMHO of course!) because the for most races the difference between 16" and 12" is immaterial if you still can't bring a weapon to bear. Essentially, it's still not a knife fighter because you still have a sword and virtually everyone else has a letter opener!

Regards,

Dave

 

[Foxmeister]

You can All Stop! and move 0.1" and still dodge - as far as I'm concerned a ship that moves 0.1" hasn't really moved enough to warrant a dodge.

I wouldn't allow it. I may be technically out of line, but thats cheese, it goes against the spirit of the game, and I wouldn't be likely to play that person again if they tried to move .1" and still claim full Dodge.

It is difficult to take that line when it is perfectly legal according to the rules. However, I'd be happy if Dodge was changed so that you have to have moved at least X inches (no idea what X should be right now) for it to count.


Regards,

Dave

 

[Hindsight]

As to your back arc statements... whats to stop us from doing that now? =)

Nothing at all - it's *exactly* what does happen most of the time. That's the reason why your 12" doesn't work (IMHO of course!) because the for most races the difference between 16" and 12" is immaterial if you still can't bring a weapon to bear. Essentially, it's still not a knife fighter because you still have a sword and virtually everyone else has a letter opener!

Regards,

Dave

I see getting to shoot you less on my way into your back arc as a reduction. Shooting you once before I get there vs. shooting you twice and then being there. So none of the Narn fleets have a mechanic for dealing with "things that are fast"? I think I don't believe that.

We may just have to agree to disagree. Also, whats to stop the Narn from All Stop, And Pivot with those shiny new CBD 4+ to soak up damage?

You want us to loose our speed. Thats just not going to happen. Its a fast ship, vs. the Demos and the Dag'Kar it has less attack dice, it makes up for that by allowing a clever player to get in your blind spots. I'm sorry... but thats just tactics. Faster ships will always have an advantage over slower ships... so... nerf speed? No. No thank you.

 

[Hindsight]

It is difficult to take that line when it is perfectly legal according to the rules. However, I'd be happy if Dodge was changed so that you have to have moved at least X inches (no idea what X should be right now) for it to count.

I'd say 25% of your movement. ie the minimum an agile ship can move and make a turn.

Really going to sleep now, before my wife tosses the White Stars out into the street. Think I get a Dodge roll vs. that? =)

 

[Foxmeister]

We may just have to agree to disagree. Also, whats to stop the Narn from All Stop, And Pivot with those shiny new CBD 4+ to soak up damage?

Quite a lot actually!

Before you can All Stop and Pivot, you have to All Stop first. That's one turn and of course you can't be on CBD because you are already performing the All Stop SA.

Turn 2, you can All Stop and Pivot and turn to face (assuming the WS hasn't moved away first anyway), and again you can't be on CBD due to the ASaP SA.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Foxmeister]

You want us to loose our speed. Thats just not going to happen. Its a fast ship, vs. the Demos and the Dag'Kar it has less attack dice, it makes up for that by allowing a clever player to get in your blind spots. I'm sorry... but thats just tactics. Faster ships will always have an advantage over slower ships... so... nerf speed? No. No thank you.

Lose speed? :?: :?: :?:

I never mentioned anything about losing speed?? I'm advocating a shorter range to your "knife fighter".

Regards,

Dave

 

[CZuschlag]

how about

Improved Neutron Laser 8" F 2 Beam, Precise, Triple Damage
Molecular Pulsar 12" F 4 Accurate, AP, Double Damage

In general it's the beam that does the big damage but if you did it this way they could fire pulsars more often. Which fits more in line to the show. And range 8 as we all know is the usual rubbish secondaries range.

I don't know if this is the Whitestar, but it is an absolutely fascinating tactical vessel. I very much want to see the playtest results of this craft.

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Foxmeister:

I remember that you can All Stop and do a second special action while in a gravity well, but I don't know if you can All Stop and Pivot while doing another special action in a gravity well. Just something to consider.

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Hindsight:

My cheese detector goes off awfully quick, but I've never seen moving "an infinitesimal amount" to get access to Dodge as cheesy. The main penalty out there for trying this is exposing yourself to assault by Launch Shuttles and Breaching Pods, which, for a Whitestar, is a terrifying order.

 

[Foxmeister]

I remember that you can All Stop and do a second special action while in a gravity well, but I don't know if you can All Stop and Pivot while doing another special action in a gravity well. Just something to consider.

There's no text in ASaP regarding gravity wells, so IMHO it only applies to all stop.

So yes, in a gravity well, you could All Stop and CBD, but that WS in your rear arc is still going to make a mess of you since you can't turn to face it an remain on CBD, so it's really worth considering after all....

Regards,

Dave

 

[skavendan]

I remember that you can All Stop and do a second special action while in a gravity well, but I don't know if you can All Stop and Pivot while doing another special action in a gravity well. Just something to consider.

There's no text in ASaP regarding gravity wells, so IMHO it only applies to all stop.

So yes, in a gravity well, you could All Stop and CBD, but that WS in your rear arc is still going to make a mess of you since you can't turn to face it an remain on CBD, so it's really worth considering after all....

Regards,

Dave

In that very rare instance and Yes Foxmeister is right it would change nothing.