Profiteering from the rulebooks

atgxtg said:
I have sort of the same feeling here. IMO they should have just put all the stuff in the Companion into the main book.

I'd also have liked the idea of a boxed set where you can get the "essentials" (game rules, creature stats, magic) all at once in order to get a view of the whole game.
Maybe I'm too old school, but I can't figure out why they are releasing the way the are (other than potentially the topic of this thread).

What I like to see is two categories of publications -- one for players, and one for gamemasters.

The best example of this is AD&D with the Player's Handbook(which had everything to create characters and the magic system) and the DM Guide/Monster Manual for the GMs. RQ3 also followed this model (Player's Box, Gamemaster's Box).

It almost seems that MQ is aimed at having nearly everyone each buy a copy of each of the first 3 books (the first 2 for sure).
 
You know, there is another option:
I could just be patient for a few extra weeks and check out the MRQ SRD *FOR FREE* and see if it suitably impresses me enough to earn my $50.

Edit: just checked...looks like the Companion will be folded into the SRD as well.

I may be on to something here...
Steve
 
Mac V said:
I know boxed sets are pretty much a thing of the past. I know there's been a few, but they are too expensive and retailers shy away from them.
The German Call of Cthulhu boxed sets do well and they keep on being produced so I guess they're quite popular.

When RQIII (1984) hit the UK it was £40 in Games Workshop for the Deluxe edition. Way out of our group's price range so we just carried on with RQII...

Yog Radio will be down at Continuum next weekend and we'll no doubt be covering the new RQ for a future show considering its extremely close ties with Call of Cthulhu.

- oh yes, and please vote for Yog-Sothoth.com at the ENnies!

Cheers!

Paul
 
Here's one of the major reasons why UK retailers typically like to avoid boxed sets for RPGs:

In the UK, Boxed sets typically attract VAT, while books are VAT-free (17.5% cheaper).

All it usually takes is the inclusion of a sheet of counters or a poster in the box to make it no longer count as a book and escape getting taxed. A product that is solely books however (including a boxed set of nothing but books) are thought to be of some educational value by the government and therefore escape taxation in order to encourage the masses to read them :)

The effects of this can be seen in the original Judge Dredd RPG by GW in the 80s, which came out as both a boxed set and later as a hardback edition with the counters and map as perforated inserts in the back. Perforated inserts apparently count as "pages" in the book. The hardback book edition also took up less than half the space of the box on the shelf, so you could fit three or four copies in the space the box took up.

As a side note - books containing a DVD or CD in an envelope envelope suddenly turn the whole product into glorified disc packaging and make the entire product taxable. However, I believe the 3rd Edition D&D Player's Handbook somehow escaped this (most likely because it was not emblazoned across the front cover and nobody from the Inland Revenue cared enough about D&D to take a look :) )
 
My personal preference for RPG rulebooks would be to have them come as a shrinkwrapped set of holepunched pages - it does not weigh as much (cheaper to post), and people can then stuff them into ring binders (or alternatively, get them bound however else they prefer) for easily updating the pages once the errata is printed a month later :) Plus you can use some card dividers to put the inevitable supplements into the back.

TSR did this for the Gamers Handbook of the Marvel Universe - literally hundreds of pages over eight books that covered pretty much anyone and anything seen in the Marvel universe at that time, complete with stats for the original Marvel Super Heroes RPG in the late 80s (the last four books were update books that took you up to 1992) - the books were usable as books, but the pages were bound loosely (in the same way as a pad of lined holepunched paper, if I remember correctly - my copies are in storage at the moment so I can't check) so you could tear them out very easily. Unfortunately they were three-hole-punched and I could never find a three-ring binder in the UK :( (note to manufacturers - please either punch with seven holes so they'll fit UK two/four-ring style as well as US three-ring style, or sell the binders with nicely printed covers as well, or better yet don't punch them as hole punches are very cheap to get hold of anyway - just make it very easy to remove individual pages without tearing or having to cut them!)

The downside is this leads to very easy scanning/photocopying of the work (but it's still far easier to break the security on a PDF and copy it that way)
 
Much as it goes against the grain, I'm gonna have to stand up for the publisher this times. Okay I admit I would prefer Core Rules & Companion together, but mainly 'cos I want it all Now!!! One of the huge differences (I hope) RQ4 / MRQ / MQ (I'm starting to lose track of the appropriate abbreviations) will be production standards. That was definitely not Avalon Hill's strong suit. Staple-bound paper books and abyssmal interior artwork are my overwhelming memory. The Chaosium did a better job first/second time around. Certainly the Preview of Second Age is promising.

RQ-14
 
mthomason said:
Here's one of the major reasons why UK retailers typically like to avoid boxed sets for RPGs:

In the UK, Boxed sets typically attract VAT, while books are VAT-free (17.5% cheaper).

All it usually takes is the inclusion of a sheet of counters or a poster in the box to make it no longer count as a book and escape getting taxed. A product that is solely books however (including a boxed set of nothing but books) are thought to be of some educational value by the government and therefore escape taxation in order to encourage the masses to read them :)

The effects of this can be seen in the original Judge Dredd RPG by GW in the 80s, which came out as both a boxed set and later as a hardback edition with the counters and map as perforated inserts in the back. Perforated inserts apparently count as "pages" in the book. The hardback book edition also took up less than half the space of the box on the shelf, so you could fit three or four copies in the space the box took up.

As a side note - books containing a DVD or CD in an envelope envelope suddenly turn the whole product into glorified disc packaging and make the entire product taxable. However, I believe the 3rd Edition D&D Player's Handbook somehow escaped this (most likely because it was not emblazoned across the front cover and nobody from the Inland Revenue cared enough about D&D to take a look :) )


Interesting, I can see why boxed set are attractive in the UK.
THey used to be fairly popular in the US. Our tax laws are differenrnt. I suspect the main reason for the decline of box sets here was the fact that gamers can't flip through them and see if they like the product. Same reason wny shrinkrappered RPG products are rare.

I think this makes even more sense in light of some of the crappy boxed sets that TSR burnt pweople with-like the old Buck Rogers and Indiana Jones RPGs. No wonder people stopped buying TSR's boxed sets.

THe mulit-book fomat was nice for RQ though. I wonder if it would be vialbe to sett a supplmenet as a series of books? A setting book, encounter book, scenarios book, and players book, all in the RQ2 mold, but without the box. I could see expanding the players handouts section with useful notes and a player's map and any sepcial rules the players would need to keep note of (like desert surivial notes, and a list of tribes for Prax). THey could market it so as to try and sell the player's book cheap, so that each player would buy one.
 
PaulofCthulhu said:
When RQIII (1984) hit the UK it was £40 in Games Workshop for the Deluxe edition. Way out of our group's price range so we just carried on with RQII...

Paul

Yeah, way to kill off a game quickly overnight. The rules went from being nice and cheap to horrendously expensive overnight. And the quality of the 'Deluxe' edition was abysmal.

I went from RQ die-hard to a 'I wonder what else there is I can play' overnight. Went back when the River of Cradles, etc came out, but by then RQ was entering its death throes.
 
Thanks for the vote!

We eventually picked up the re-packaged GW editions in hardback later on, however, our copies had poor binding and quickly fell apart (as did our GW hardback editions of Stormbringer) :(

However our GW 3rd edition Call of Cthulhu rulebooks from 1986 are still going strong after 20 years. (So it might be that whole 'glossy paper' thing.)

I brought some of the Pegasus Spiele Call of Cthulhu boxed sets such as Auf Den Inseln along to Continuum in 2004. They're the best productions I've ever seen for RPGs. (Though Monte Cook's Ptolus looks fantastic as a single RPG book). I'd certainly pay the 17.5% extra for quality like that, but that's just me.

You can see people looking at them (just) in the following video.

Continuum 2004 Yog Meet

Paul
 
I have seen those sets at Gen Con last year. They knocked me to the floor and had me wondering why we didn't have them in English. More incentive to learn German...
 
Beyond cost, another reason why you don't see many box sets is that retailers tend to hate them. They're harder to place in racks and they damage more easily than books.

On top of that, they're usually shrinkwrapped which is something a lot of consumers hate. Most people who buy games like to flip through the product before buying.

Hyrum.
 
- and yet in Germany they remain popular. Even D&D 3e was released in boxed format. Go figure.

These days I see less games in real world stores and more online, where the fact it's a box is only an issue for postage rather than shelf space.

I really ought to brush up on my German language skills too.

Paul
 
PaulofCthulhu said:
They're the best productions I've ever seen for RPGs. (Though Monte Cook's Ptolus looks fantastic as a single RPG book). I'd certainly pay the 17.5% extra for quality like that, but that's just me.

Yeah, this is really true. The German CoC books from Pegasus are awesome. Production quality AND content are fantastic. Belongs to the best material in the RP industry. And the nice side effect its that it shows thousands of German roleplayers the way to BRP. :)
 
Enpeze said:
Yeah, this is really true. The German CoC books from Pegasus are awesome.

If they're anywhere near as good as the Worlds of Cthulhu mag they publish then I can certainly understand that.
 
Anyway, I hope to pick up the new RQ this coming weekend.

Does anyone have any reports from buying them at the Mongoose Open Day yesterday (22nd July)?

Paul
 
PaulofCthulhu said:
Does anyone have any reports from buying them at the Mongoose Open Day yesterday (22nd July)?

Only one quick second-hand report of "looks cool and brought back a lot of memories", I'm afraid :)
 
mthomason said:
Enpeze said:
Yeah, this is really true. The German CoC books from Pegasus are awesome.

If they're anywhere near as good as the Worlds of Cthulhu mag they publish then I can certainly understand that.

Oh yes. And they are innovative too. Eg they brought out a revised (4 books and box) version of "orient express" and they used instead of page numbers a CLOCK. :) So you dont look at page 57, you look at page 3.45h. Crazy but a very interesting idea.

Most of their adventures and source books are centered on 1930 Germany, but they present also good old Chaosium stuff which they revise and present in a never-seen-before quality. (eg. the Nyarlathotep Box)
Interestingly Chaosium should release the Malleus Monstrorum this year which is probably the same as the Malleus Monstrorum from Pegasus which appeared 2005.
So it seems that Chaosium begin to translate CoC material from German to English. :)
 
The Call of Cthulhu 20th anniversary edition layout is based on Pegasus Spiele's earlier CoC limited edition (limited to 666 copies).

They've also done a great 2-book edition of the rules. One for the Keeper and one for the Players (which according to Pegasus has created a big boost in Cthulhu interest in Germanic speaking countries).

Pegasus has to innovate for Cthulhu, as so many German roleplayers speak & read English they need to present something compelling to persuade people not to automatically buy the English language edition.

Pegasus also have 90 people working on the German Call of Cthulhu line to give you an idea of the scale of things.

http://www.pegasus.de/cthulhu.html

Paul
 
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