Problems?

[tneva82]

I wouldn't be so quick to start writing things off yet. All of the release schedule is minis, almost all of which have been approved, so if ADB do ADB stuff for the next four months in order to release the next ADB product then it isn't going to have much effect on ACTA:SFU.

I think people worrying are being very premature.

Well we are talking about substantial amount of money we could easily end up if steve ends up abandoning this project...

I can always get back to the game in 2 year time if it actually looks like game survives.

But once spent money is wasted if game ends up abandoned.

 

[mdauben]

If I had created a business 30 years ago, and found that I had to focus on another persons business which was having a negative impact on my long established business, too right I'd focus on it.

It could be argued that he should have considered this scheduling issue before signing a contract with Mongoose, but that's neither hear nor there. Also, its not exactly just "another person's biuisness". I'm sure ACTASF is generating profits for him, too. I think its a given that ACTASF is going to eat a little into sales of ADBs original lines, but I think on balance it will will add many more players to the overall customer base than it steals from the SFB/FC slice of the pie. Sure, he has to split the profits with Mongoose, but judging from the relative internet buzz, a lot more money is being spent on ACTASF in the last few months than is being spent on SFB/FC.

I myself would actually consider getting a new product line (especially one that has the potential to add so many new members to the player base) established as having priority over adding or tweaking minor supplements to an old, exisisting and (IMO) rather mature (i.e. static) product line. As someone who has been a customer of both ADB and Mongoose, if he has to chose I would rather see him spend the time on the new line, rather than the old line.

Starting to look more and more like ACTASF doesn't have much of future.

Well, I think that's reading way too much into a simple scheduling conflict. Despite what I said above I'm not seeing any need to start worrying yet.

But once spent money is wasted if game ends up abandoned.

Honestly, once I get my hands on the minis currently in the pipeline (particularly the Kzinti and Gorn fleet boxes) I would have everything I need to play the game for the rest of my life. Now, I certainly hope Mongoose keeps producing new minis and new supplements to the core rules for years, but if they don't it in no way invalidates the money I have already spent on the game.

 

[tneva82]

That would be fine, if ADB had 50 employee's it simply doesn't and there isn't anyone to delegate too.

To use your comparison, how would then even design a 2012 ford superduper, if the guy making the spare parts, and the main designer, for both of the cars, was still having to do that same job, of making spare parts, because there was no one available to delegate their job.

Then again ACTA:SF is where ADB's biggest expansion in terms of profit is likely to come up...

New set of miniatures which people don't have yet(if you already have fleets of 2400 will you buy that much of them anymore...) + new ruleset which also is good at geared up for getting new players.

SFB by it's very nature(very complex rules) is not good one at attracting new customers(Which every company need). I would be very comfortable estimating that for every new SFB player past 6 month there's been lot more new ACTA players.

SFB is existing game which shouldn't require that much work yet. Directing effort from the one most likely creating expansion to the company is more than bit of a odd.

 

[tneva82]

Well, I think that's reading way too much into a simple scheduling conflict. Despite what I said above I'm not seeing any need to start worrying yet.

Issue is not that this is SINGLE issue...

More like constant stream of same old stuff.

Once might be nothing, 2 might be ignorable, 3 is starting to get worrying and once you get more than 3(done) it gets really worrying.

There's games that are safer bet that will be around than ACTA:SF. I have got enough on getting into games that just dies shortly after I pick it up.

SST, B5, epic armageddon(well that I could have forseen). Basically any specialistic game. No hope whatsoever for any warmaster ancient/legends of the old west from historical games either as they too were killed. Couple more.

There's only so many times I like that to happen. Frankly I rather get back to warhammer FB&40k. They might not have best rules and I would have to update rules but at least games will be alive and with quaranteed player pool(unlike mongoose games which are pretty much dead to begin with here. But imagine trying to bring some life to dead game when it's ridiculously hard with alive games...)

 

[mdauben]

Double Post

 

[nekomata fuyu]

It's not all bad. If Steve is feeling the strain of being too involved with ACTA, he might end up deciding to leave it more to Matthew.

My understanding is that half of the errata were due to Steve jumping in and micromanaging changes to the ships rather than merely saying "The systems are different, so the ships don't need to be exactly the same. Matt, do they at least play similar?"
If this is the case, Steve focusing on SFB and leaving ACTA more to Matthew could be a good thing...

 

[Ben2]

There's nothing rules related that needs sorting immediately.

The book is out and we're in the release cycle for the miniatures from it, and I'm fairly sure almost all of those have already been approved by everyone (and the stuff being posted at the moment is from the next book), so the worst case scenario is the book comes out after the beginning of the next miniatures release cycle, and releasing minis for supplements early with preview rules has happened plenty of times before and I was under the impression was already being considered for the next supplement.

 

[Jean]

My gracious, what a tempest in a teapot over the following statement:

Well, I'm going to focus on ADB products for the next few months. If that means ACTASF stuff slips in the schedule, so be it. Matthew says he'd rather I respond when I can than complain about him stopping me from doing my own products.

Notice the word is "slips," not "stops" or "ends." Notice this is done with Matthew agreeing. No one wants ACTASF to stop.

Mongoose has had things slip for Noble Armada. ADB has had things slip for its own lines. I think both companies can take a bit of time to satisfy their original customers and let the playtesters get things tested thoroughly. It also lets Sandrine work in ship design -- surely you noticed the final renders for two Orion ships? It also lets us build up inventory so that you aren't frustrated by slow fills of your Starline 2500 orders.

As for SVC delegating to others -- exactly to whom do you suggest he delegate what things? I'm not there yet (just under 10 months left before I am), so I cannot take the marketing tasks on any further than I have. SVC does a huge amount of the writing for Captain's Log -- we've advertised for writers, but haven't seen many willing to write fiction within the rules of the SFU (note, this is not trying to be nasty -- to write realistic combat and do so within the established rules is a very difficult task). Captain's Log was to be out in May and is not. SVC is the game designer for Federation Commander and we were to have a supplement out in May and it is not.

We're trying to get Traveller: Prime Directive done and I am not there to do it, so it falls on his shoulders to keep pieces and parts going. (You did notice the new cover design for that, right?) SFB has been delegated to Steven Petrick and he has his hands full with that. We have not released a new product since Captain's Log in November (other than Hailing Frequencies and Communique which require SVC time, but are totally free and thus don't directly produce revenue). We need to focus on some products for our original customers -- the ones who have been loyal for 30+ years.

It is a rare day that SVC takes off completely --even most times on his day off (Sunday), he comes in to check email. He's there until late at night several days a week. Honestly, the man works far more hours than most people I know. So working more hours really isn't an option. These are the realities for a company with four full-time employees, a very part-time graphic designer, and a person with a RL job and who is a volunteer wearing three additional hats for ADB.

So give us the time we need to satisfy our customers' desires (and fulfill our obligations to them) and that will allow Matthew to do the same for Mongoose customers. In the meantime, playtesters will make the forthcoming ACTASF rules stronger and everyone benefits.

With respect,

Jean

[Edited to fix my dyslexic typing. ]

 

[astronomypete]

I support you Jean, Steve and Matt.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Starting to look more and more like ACTASF doesn't have much of future.

It does. The agreement we have with ADB is perpetual, with no termination date and whatever stresses and strains pop up, the game is doing too well. And it plays _very_ nicely.

Tell you what, keep an eye out over the next 2-3 months. You are going to see a lot appearing for CTA: SF, which will complete everything in the core rulebook and bring a lot of stuff into metal that you may not have been expecting all that soon...

That should give you the confidence you need.

 

[mdauben]

My gracious, what a tempest in a teapot over the following statement:

It does. The agreement we have with ADB is perpetual, with no termination date and whatever stresses and strains pop up, the game is doing too well. And it plays _very_ nicely.

Thanks, Jean and Matt for putting things in perspective. I'll just stop worrying about it and get back to painting my first three fleets, so my painting table will be clear when the Kzinti and Gorn fleets finally arrive!

 

[tneva82]

It does. The agreement we have with ADB is perpetual, with no termination date and whatever stresses and strains pop up, the game is doing too well. And it plays _very_ nicely.

Maybe not termination date but what's stopping ADB from pulling the plug?

Or you telling it's so sureproof that even Steve cannot hinder it? Cannot pull the plug? Cannot simply delay everything ad infinum by not doing anything? You can keep on supporting regardless of what ADB wants producing new rules, ships and so on?

Very doubtful that contract is so. Basically it would be ADB giving 100% free reign for you to do whatever you wish with the universum...

That should give you the confidence you need.

Not really. Plenty of games before have filled core book and then died. Epic armageddon, SST, ACTA:B5 to name a few. Last 2 at least should be pretty familiar...

 

[Renny]

My gracious, what a tempest in a teapot over the following statement:

Well, I'm going to focus on ADB products for the next few months. If that means ACTASF stuff slips in the schedule, so be it. Matthew says he'd rather I respond when I can than complain about him stopping me from doing my own products.

Jean

With respect, I think the storm was caused by the uncertainty inherent in Mr Cole's original statement, made in an offhand manner on a public forum.
A few less comments like that would go a long way to restoring my confidence in the joint venture. Just saying.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Not really. Plenty of games before have filled core book and then died. Epic armageddon, SST, ACTA:B5 to name a few. Last 2 at least should be pretty familiar...

Enough to know that both did far more than complete the core book releases. Both went on to spawn multiple supplements and minis, the latter hitting something like 200 different miniatures across 13 fleets - I always said it was difficult to see where CTA: B5 could go from there...

But yes, there are safeguards in place for CTA: SF. Think of the investment we have put into it in terms of time and resources - we would not have done that without a safe footing.

 

[tneva82]

Enough to know that both did far more than complete the core book releases. Both went on to spawn multiple supplements and minis, the latter hitting something like 200 different miniatures across 13 fleets - I always said it was difficult to see where CTA: B5 could go from there...

Yes. They did lot. Was there similar complaining by execs at WB at the start of ACTA:B5 though? don't think so.

And both are now dead, dead, dead. Good luck trying to attract new players to game to which you need to pay more than the original prices for models and can't just go to store and get them. All money I spent for those games wasted. Wasted, wasted, wasted.

Don't feel like investing hundreds if not thousands of €'s with same result.

Good if it survives but I'll go for the safe route and invest money elsewhere.

 

[Greg Smith]

Not really. Plenty of games before have filled core book and then died. Epic armageddon, SST, ACTA:B5 to name a few. Last 2 at least should be pretty familiar...

Not to mitigate your concern in anyway, but B5 ACTA got first edition, revised edition, Sky Full of Stars, Armageddon and then a second edition. All of which were filled. SST got a core book, army books for Archnids, MI, Pathfinders & Skinnies as well as a campaign.

 

[tneva82]

Not really. Plenty of games before have filled core book and then died. Epic armageddon, SST, ACTA:B5 to name a few. Last 2 at least should be pretty familiar...

Not to mitigate your concern in anyway, but B5 ACTA got first edition, revised edition, Sky Full of Stars, Armageddon and then a second edition. All of which were filled. SST got a core book, army books for Archnids, MI, Pathfinders & Skinnies as well as a campaign.

Yes but then died. Good luck trying to find players for those especially around here. There was prolly like 5 SST players when it was alive. Doubtful more than 2 remains now...Don't know if there was any playing of B5 beyond me and my friend.

And neither of those had the rightholder complaining about Mongoose from the get-go...

Doesn't look like safe investment as in fairly sure I can play even say 5 years. I haven't had mongoose game last more than 2-3 years at best so far :-<

Doesn't matter if they get plenty of material when support is on if support is withdrawn because from that moment on game is DEAD and destined to sit on shelves at best, at box in garage most likely. After that unless I can find sucker to whom sell I might just as well throw them in garbage(actually I have had to resort to that plan with couple games...) bin.

 

[Greg Smith]

Yes but then died.

Just thinking of the miniature games I've invested in.

Battlefleet Gothic
Necromunda
Epic 40k
Invasion Earth
SST
B5 ACTA
Confrontation

Hmm, all dead. Or at least on life support. Personally, I got my money's worth out of most of those in the few years they were around.

There is one other: Warhammer. If you want players and longevity, there is your answer.

 

[H]

Yes but then died.

Just thinking of the miniature games I've invested in.

Battlefleet Gothic
Necromunda
Epic 40k
Invasion Earth
SST
B5 ACTA
Confrontation

Hmm, all dead. Or at least on life support. Personally, I got my money's worth out of most of those in the few years they were around.

There is one other: Warhammer. If you want players and longevity, there is your answer.

mm,
Confrontation
Helldorado,
SST
ACTA
and just managed to avoid buying BFG and SST, along with BFE as i saw which way the wind was blowing.

sadly, I find 40k aweful, so not a chance! (lovely minis mind and a pretty decent background too)

 

[billclo]

Those of you complaining about games going "dead": have you tried to run demos at stores or conventions? Have you tried to recruit players? The game is "dead" only as long as you let it be. Yes it may be harder to recruit players, but it's still possible.

You can still play with whatever materials you have; it's not as if they suddenly become worthless and no longer work. There are plenty of games that are still fun to play even though they are not supported anymore.

At worst, you can try to sell your old "dead" games on Ebay or Noble Knights/Troll and Toad to get something out of your "dead" game. Better than throwing it all away.