Prime Directive...

ShawnDriscoll said:
You have to just believe that a United Federation of Planets utopia works, and that there are people eager to get up every morning to go to work and not get paid for it. There's both a political side and an economic side to Star Trek that gets glossed over because of their holes.
But you see, its not the 24th century Next Generation Star Trek, we're talking about, its the 23rd century Prime Directive Universe, and its different, in that Universe there are unscrupilous people such as Harry Mudd, even the 24th century had its Quark, so makes me wonder how Utopian it is.
 
Tom Kalbfus said:
ShawnDriscoll said:
You have to just believe that a United Federation of Planets utopia works, and that there are people eager to get up every morning to go to work and not get paid for it. There's both a political side and an economic side to Star Trek that gets glossed over because of their holes.
But you see, its not the 24th century Next Generation Star Trek, we're talking about, its the 23rd century Prime Directive Universe, and its different, in that Universe there are unscrupilous people such as Harry Mudd, even the 24th century had its Quark, so makes me wonder how Utopian it is.
The Federation is just bigger in TNG. So there are less traders like Harry Mudd to encounter. Outside the Federation there will be worlds trading with each other. Some worlds within the Federation will not be members of the Federation, also. The Prime Directive applies to them. Not to interfere with their culture kind of thing, which might be trading.
 
ShawnDriscoll said:
Tom Kalbfus said:
ShawnDriscoll said:
You have to just believe that a United Federation of Planets utopia works, and that there are people eager to get up every morning to go to work and not get paid for it. There's both a political side and an economic side to Star Trek that gets glossed over because of their holes.
But you see, its not the 24th century Next Generation Star Trek, we're talking about, its the 23rd century Prime Directive Universe, and its different, in that Universe there are unscrupilous people such as Harry Mudd, even the 24th century had its Quark, so makes me wonder how Utopian it is.
The Federation is just bigger in TNG. So there are less traders like Harry Mudd to encounter. Outside the Federation there will be worlds trading with each other. Some worlds within the Federation will not be members of the Federation, also. The Prime Directive applies to them. Not to interfere with their culture kind of thing, which might be trading.
It is easier to enforce with single planet pre-warp civilizations, which is what the Prime Directive was designed to deal with, its not designed to deal with interstellar empires such as the Klingons, Romulans, and the Third Imperium. There is nothing stopping a Third Imperium Free Trader from visiting a Starbase, since the Imperium and surrounding interstellar states also have FTL drives, they are a different sort that the warp drive. A Jump Drive can emerge within the borders of the Federation without passing through the border. I'm not sure the Federation would have sensors capable of detecting star ships in Jump Space. I don't think the nature of Jump Space will allow the Federation to intercept them until they arrive at the 100 diameter limit outside a planet. I think a black globe could probably stop a transporter beam, but most Imperium ships don't have those. Transporters and subspace radios are fairly common in the Federation, I'm sure the Imperium will get a hold of those, and once they do things in the Imperium won't be the same. The Imperium is designed for communication that travels as fast as the fastest starship, give them subspace radio and everything changes, it could start a civil war as the center tries to insert tighter controls and the planetary governments resent this intrusion. I wonder what the Emperor would do when contact was made with the Federation. What do you think Stephron would do?
 
There is some info on how the SFU's UFP handles various encounters in Prime Directive Federation, and some data on the Federation economy (it does have one) there and in the PD core book.


The Federation in this setting has a number of inhabited planets "under" the hex map. Some of them are at a pre-spaceflight technology level, and are generally kept under Prime Directive protection if at all possible. Others are warp-capable planets which are on friendly terms with the UFP, but for whatever reason choose not to become member planets. Still others are under "protective quarantine" - intended not to protect the locals from the outside, but to protect outsiders from the locals.

One example of the latter case is shown with the Yeney, a species mentioned in PD: Feds. The Yeney are highly xenophobic and refuse to open diplomatic contact with the UFP. They have non-tactical warp drive and managed to colonize four star systems in their near neighbourhood, but have been prevented from expanding any further by the Federation.


One of the key distinctions in the SFU is between non-tactical warp (impulse) and tactical warp drive, as detailed here. NTW allows you to transit faster than light between star systems, but must slow to sublight (or near-light) speeds in order to fight (with "sublight" weapons like lasers and atomic missiles). Tactical warp allows you to transit progressively faster the further your warp drives advance, and also allows a ship to fight at low warp speeds (and with "warp-class" weapons, like phasers and photon torpedoes). Tactical warp also allows for certain key technologies, like transporters.

When approaching a planet, a ship has to slow to battle speeds once it comes within range of any defending weapons, since even a single hit point at high warp is catastrophic. A NTW ship approaching a TW-defended world has to slow down at the same point at a TW ship, but is obliged to take a lot longer to crawl to the planet. Plus, while doing so, any TW ships in the area can move to intercept the NTW ship long before the latter gets close to the world, and then literally run rings around it once they meet. Indeed, a NTW ship has to have its sensor suites upgraded to track tactical warp movement in order to even detect where the TW ship is.

By and large, unless the tactical warp-powered ship belongs to a faction which has a particular reason to stay its hand against a non-tactical warp-powered aggressor, or if the "sublight" ship has some sort of equalizer (say, a cloaking device and a "warp-class" plasma torpedo), a NTW faction has an uphill battle indeed when trying to take on a TW-powered opponent.
 
ShawnDriscoll said:
I don't plan on mixing two completely different game settings together.
That's kind of the point of having them run on the same game system. Basically under this scenario, the classic Traveller setting would be messed up far more than the Prime Directive Setting, basically due to the introduction of disruptive Star Trek technologies such as subspace radio, the transporter, and warp drive. The Imperium is loosely governed because there is no FTL radio, Prime Directive has one, this would tend to centralize the Imperial government because with subspace radio, it can now govern its member systems more directly rather than the quasifeudal system it now has, called a "Feudal Technocracy" to be precise. The Federation has a more democratic republican structure. Politically the Imperium would resemble Europe in the Early 20th century as far as government structures, with lots of aristocrats and hereditary monarchies. I wonder how those worlds would interact with Federation Worlds. It is inevitable that warp technology, subspace radio, and transporter technology would spread, there is no way the Federation could stop that from happening, there is no way it can isolate 11,000 worlds, the Federation doesn't have enough starships to do that!
 
Just wanted to thank Jean for clarifying the modified situation for the 2 companies.
I do have a question, though; I've been eagerly awaiting a hard-copy version of the Traveller Prime Directive books, but I live in the UK. Will ADB be the only PoD source for the books (ie - will I have to send off to the states for them?), or will they be available to PoD in the UK (or other countries, I suppose), lowering any postage charges?
I know I could just take a PDF along to a local printer, but having done that in the past, I'm aware that buying from a good PoD company produces a much better product. I have bought printed books from Mongoose in the past and have been satisfied with the quality, I was after the same with the Traveller Prime Directive books - it shouldn't over-complicate matters if they can be printed fairly locally through a good PoD company.
 
Hi Rick,

I wish I had a good answer for you, but I don't. I know that we will be printing the books here, but I don't know if the European distributors will order them. Sorry. :(
 
As Gary reminded me, Black Hat Miniatures says it can special order anything from ADB, so that might be an option.
 
Jean said:
As Gary reminded me, Black Hat Miniatures says it can special order anything from ADB, so that might be an option.

I wasn't aware of that - I'll have to see what I can do through them in that case. Thanks Jean.
 
If I remember correctly, at least ST:TOS had a credit system which credited value to your occupation to purchase goods and service. Sound increasingly familiar in our 21st century real world?

Star Trek focused the majority of their attention on Star Fleet personnel who receive most of their immediate needs from the base or ship they serve on. They never show exchange on non-fleet locations because it normally didn't add to the story. 99.999..% of the Federation is transparent on the shows and movies. I assume officers are issued something akin to a credit card on member worlds or any world wishing to do business on a universal level. Other worlds, for any reason they can't or won't accept credits but still do any business, would have some exchange system including physical currency. I can say bartering has been plot points in the past.
 
Hmm. Several additional series and films have muddied the waters in my personal opinion.

From what I understand, the original concept of the UFP wasn't as a 'super-government', administering every planet from a central location, but more of a UN style affair. Each planet was self-governing with its' own laws, government and way of doing business, the UFP administering the space between and around those planets. Star Fleet, having the job of being a 'multinational peacekeeping/exploratory agency' used a sort of credit system, rather than carrying currencies from every single planet. Treaties with Romulans or Klingons were made at a UFP level, with delegates to the UFP having their say in regards to their own planet, but each planet was free to arrange individual trading agreements on its own.

The idea of the UFP being an homogenous, federalised entity akin to a star-spanning 'United States of Humanity' I think only started to creep in sometime during ST:TNG era and is a gross oversimplification of the original idea, IMHO completely out of place in a Prime Directive game - but everyone is entitled to play it as they like.

My Prime Directive Federation will be a growing, multicultural collection of disparate planets who use the forum of the UFP to arrange agreements and sort out disputes, Star Fleet being only the military/peacekeeping/exploration arm of that body - Andoria, Vulcan and other planets will also have ships of their own.

If you think my interpretation of the UFP in the TOS era is completely out of kilter - go and find a copy of the original TOS technical manual and read the articles of federation in it, it might just surprise you if you've only known the later series'.

Oh, and as an aside - the 'Prime Directive' that is supposedly the most important of Starfleet's procedures in the later series, isn't even mentioned in the TOS articles of federation. AFAIK, in the original series, when it is mentioned at all, it is as a guideline - a minor part of the first contact protocols, nothing more.
 
If the UPF was like the UN, then the Klingon Empire and the Romulans would be members of it. I think the UPF is a Democracy club, dictators and despots are not invited. Much like the EU in fact.
 
Tom Kalbfus said:
If the UPF was like the UN, then the Klingon Empire and the Romulans would be members of it. I think the UPF is a Democracy club, dictators and despots are not invited. Much like the EU in fact.

From what I remember of the timeline, the UFP was set up before official contact with the Romulans and the Klingons and neither had any interest in joining. Although, in some of the books, there are references to both empires sending ambassadors to the UFP.

This is partly what I mean about the vast differences between the UFP of the TOS/Star Fleet Universe and the later series' universe. In the later series, it is a very blatant 'democracy club' almost to the point of being clones of a certain ideology; with the 'Prime Directive' as a religion. In the TOS/Star Fleet universe, the UFP has a strict doctrine of non-interference with any self-governing society, regardless of moral, ideological or technological differences (I guess the closest thing to the prime directive - just not dependant on warp technology), and membership of the UFP going to the ones with a mature society capable of understanding and accepting the articles of federation.

So yes, in the TOS UFP, despots and dictators would be welcome, as long as their society (as a whole) was ok with that method of government.
 
Rick said:
Tom Kalbfus said:
If the UPF was like the UN, then the Klingon Empire and the Romulans would be members of it. I think the UPF is a Democracy club, dictators and despots are not invited. Much like the EU in fact.

From what I remember of the timeline, the UFP was set up before official contact with the Romulans and the Klingons and neither had any interest in joining. Although, in some of the books, there are references to both empires sending ambassadors to the UFP.

This is partly what I mean about the vast differences between the UFP of the TOS/Star Fleet Universe and the later series' universe. In the later series, it is a very blatant 'democracy club' almost to the point of being clones of a certain ideology; with the 'Prime Directive' as a religion. In the TOS/Star Fleet universe, the UFP has a strict doctrine of non-interference with any self-governing society, regardless of moral, ideological or technological differences (I guess the closest thing to the prime directive - just not dependant on warp technology), and membership of the UFP going to the ones with a mature society capable of understanding and accepting the articles of federation.

So yes, in the TOS UFP, despots and dictators would be welcome, as long as their society (as a whole) was ok with that method of government.
 
I am sure there are all sorts of pre Warp civilizations within the borders of the UPF, and probably most of those are not for the most part democratically run and the Prime Directive applies to them. Let me give a concrete example for discussion purposes here. Remember the book 1984 written by George Orwell? Lets suppose there was a planet within Federation Space that was very much like the World described in George Orwell's 1984, it is populated by humanoids, and is divided into three super powers distributed among seven continents. Routinely two of those powers are aligned to fight the third one, and when it looks like the two is about to triumph over the third one of the two switches sides and aligns with the power that is about to be defeated, and so a perpetual World War is going on, each side has nuclear weapons, and they fight over the nonaligned "third world nations" that aren't part of any of the three's empires. Each Superpower has a Big Brother style government that runs its economy along a totalitarian model, the technology is late 20th century Soviet, and they aren't aware of any Federation as most of the member worlds communicate with each other vie subspace radio.

So the Federation applies the Prime Directive to this World and does not interfere in its cultural development and tries to keep others from doing so as well. So how does the Federation accomplish this, does it station a starship within the system to keep out all the "Harry Mudds" that may desire to become rich doing trade with advanced Federation technology illicitly?

Each of these totalitarian governments keeps strict control over the flow of information to its citizens. Technology advances at a snails pace and most of that which occurs has war applications and is done via government research centers. Now there are two types of interlopers within the Federation which may try to interfere with this Worlds societies, there are the profiteers such as Harry Mudd and there are the "do gooders" who for the most part agree with the Prime Directive but believe it should not be applied in the case of this particular world, because they find the societies on the planet's surface to be morally repugnant, and would very much like to engineer their overthow, and bring in illicit Federation technology to do precisely that! Now its Star Fleet's obligation to stop these potential Prime Directiv violators regardless of their motivation, because one unwelcome consequence of a transfer of Warp technology to these societies may be the emergance of a new "Romulan" or "Klingon Empire" within their borders. The "Do gooders" think they can avoid this by staging revolutions to overthrow these governments on the planet's surface, and the "Harry Mudd's" just want to earn a profit by selling to the highest bidder. What do you think would happen under these circumstances?
 
It seemed every third episode of TOS involved the implications and consequences of interference from the bombed to the stone age Com and Yang incident to the rise of Nazis with nuclear missiles able to make a starship flinch. The Prime Directive was fairly adhered to except for that rebel Kirk though a few earlier events had planets getting hold of Federation information and going wild. It's a leaky gate just loaded with scenario potential.
 
Hmm - methinks the whole 'Prime Directive debate should be moved as its' a thorny subject.

Having said that - a couple of points. Under the later series arbitrary rule of 'no warp drive = no contact', they would have to interdict the planet to make sure no contact was made. However, your point that the society may be seen as morally repugnant should not have a bearing under the TOS UFP - it cannot judge a society based on how it wants to govern itself, but it would see the cycle of wars as indicating an undeveloped immature society and interdict them as well.

If you had said that there was a mature society living in peace on a planet with pre-warp technology, then there might be a big difference - later series rules would mean that there couldn't be any contact, but the TOS rules would say that they could be approached to become members of the UFP, with mutual trade.

The original point of the Prime Directive was that an immature society might well not be able to handle the idea of high tech aliens as equals, leading to them being treated as gods, etc and being exploited, nothing to do with how good their engines are.
 
Many of these issues are addressed in the GURPS and D20M versions of the current Prime Directive source books, and should (re-)appear once they are ported into Mongoose Traveller.


There is a one-page section in PD Feds called Time, the Air Force Tapes, and the Star Fleet Universe which goes into more detail on the source material used to create the SFU. But even during the time of the original series, the "literary interpretation" seen on-screen does not always match the course of events in this universe. (Or to put it another way, the only material from TOS and TAS which is allowed to be in the SFU is that which had already been incorporated into the universe when the contract with Paramount was signed.)

For example, it's noted in the timeline that First Contact with the Gorns saw "two brash young captains shoot first and face embarrasing questions later". But the SFU version of events does not involve the Metrons, who don't exist in this universe.


So far as how this Federation treats would-be members, PD Feds notes that there is a degree of political and social freedom which such planets must at least broadly adhere to before they are allowed to join the club. And even then, there are several stages of membership (probationary, prospective, associate, and full), each with its own criteria involved before a world can move from one rank to the next.

For example, the Antareans described in PD Feds are biologically related to the Andorians, but are quite distinct culturally. The shock of First Contact (or, more specifically, the revelation that they were descended from transplanted stock taken from ancient Andor) led to a series of social upheavals. Eventually, an Ataturk-esque military leader took charge and set the Antareans on the path towards Federation membership, but they were only accepted as probationary members after instituting a series of democratic reforms.

And while they would later go through prospective and associate member status, their later bids for full membership have been blocked by the Andorians, as the two societies don't get along all that well. (The fact that the Andorians can get away with this is perhaps an example of how the founding members of the UFP differ from those planets and species which signed up later.)


In terms of military organization, the SFU UFP had distinct planetary fleets which were the primary naval arms of the Federation as a whole prior to the formation of the United Star Fleet. (You can see many of them in warp-refitted form in the three Early Years modules for Star Fleet Battles.) Over time, as Star Fleet came to the fore, the major planets kept a number of their older ships as "training squadrons". These were eventually formalised into the National Guards, which persist into the modern era.

However, while the first generation of National Guard ships were tactical warp upgrades to old sublight plantary ships, the "modern" NG hulls are hand-me-downs from the Early Years Star Fleet. (This "G-series" is mostly presented in SFB Module R8, along with equivalent "L-series" ships in other local defence forces across the Alpha Octant.)


And as noted in my last post with the Yeney, warp-capable aggressor planets within UFP space are not technically covered by the Prime Directive, but are instead placed under "protective quarantine" - as in, to protect outsiders from the depredations of the subject species in question.
 
Back
Top