Pre-Paint or not Pre-Paint, that is the Question . . . . .

[MaxSteiner]

Mongoose, relaunch the game, have some prepaints, access to white and metals, and go with coloured plastics.

Thats one of the best suggestions I've heard for a while.
... If I was lucky enough to have a big budget and owned a gaming company I'd buy the rights to GI Joe, release a box set which came with 20 coloured plastic cobra vipers, a prepaint cobra commander and maybe Snake eyes Hawk and Lady Jane for the joes, and some very basic rules.
Then I'd release booster boxes of say 10 vipers/joe reservists for the troops, and sell the main characters/veteran troops and comanders in randomly assorted packages packaged with cards which would have a copy of that cool data sheet you'd get on the back of the figures boxes back in the day, and extra rules specific for that character.

I'd also sell vehicles, cobra ones would come with some more grunts ( You need to make the most out of the coloured plastic figures, adds the appearance of value for money ), whilst the Joe vehicles would have characters like Wild Bill, who would increase the stats of vehicles

 

[Mage]

It would be way cheaper than prepaints, and all you get with prepaints is maybe a half decent base coat, and you could do the washes yourself. that way no detail is smudged, and the different plastic parts could be made in different colours. You could also get normal plastic parts for 'customising areas' lie painting the gun and whatnot whatever way you like.

But if mongoose did take this option, and brought out their own line of paints that would stick decently straight onto the plastic and not chip, like having some varnish style quliaty to it.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

... If I was lucky enough to have a big budget and owned a gaming company I'd buy the rights to GI Joe, release a box set which came with 20 coloured plastic cobra vipers, a prepaint cobra commander and maybe Snake eyes Hawk and Lady Jane for the joes, and some very basic rules.
Then I'd release booster boxes of say 10 vipers/joe reservists for the troops, and sell the main characters/veteran troops and comanders in randomly assorted packages packaged with cards which would have a copy of that cool data sheet you'd get on the back of the figures boxes back in the day, and extra rules specific for that character.

I'd also sell vehicles, cobra ones would come with some more grunts ( You need to make the most out of the coloured plastic figures, adds the appearance of value for money ), whilst the Joe vehicles would have characters like Wild Bill, who would increase the stats of vehicles

I'd be up for that

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

yeah, but Wizkids and Hasbro are begining to release packages of specific troops rather than purely random packs (for example the adventure packs for D&D), so the two markets are begining to converge.

Actually, these are a marketing ploy rather than an attempt to 'converge' markets.

The Battle for Endor Star Wars set (for example) was produced in a response to the popularity of the At-St in the Universe set. They NEW the SW collectors/gamers would simply HAVE to have it.

The new White Dragon for D&D miniatures, has a Forgotten Realms Drizzt that is ONLY available in that pack. The 'must haves' will buy it regardless of whether they want a White Dragon or not.

Attacktix comes in non random packs already for instance.

Actually, SOME Attacktix comes non-random (Starters and special packs) but the rest are randomly packed 2 - 3 to a booster.

If they WERE all non-random, my Son would be exceedingly happy (he loves Star Wars Attacktix).

 

[BuShips]

I'm a modeler first, and a gamer second. I like gaming very much, and have been doing this as a hobby for decades. I'd prefer the kit approach, but want Mongoose to succeed and survive as a company in our hobby.

If they have too much of an investment by this time in the PPMs then they are committed to see if this method sells. They should work out the problems and proceed. Improving the quality is paramount and a close eye on the factory and sculpts is critical.

I have feared the eventual disappearance of the existing kits, both in metal and plastic since the announcement. For me, I'd just then focus on making terrain to get my modelling "fix". :wink: Although I have a large investment in the products already released, I'd actually be buying quite a few of the new pre-paints. I'd use them side-by-side with my existing collection, possibly assigning the pre-paints with their better durability to new players, as I'm a bit protective of "my" personal collection, heh. Some models would be enhanced I'd say by making them pre-done, like the King Tanker. It would be much more durable done in a semi-flex plastic and without all the 'eavy metal pieces (blasphemy, to be sure, heh).

If Starship Troopers had just come out as a movie recently and Mongoose was in the position of spring-boarding off of the license with pre-painted armies, I could see it selling much more. Any new direct-to-DVD such as SST:3 will hardly make a blip of an effect, so I see the specific market for this game as being more with an audience already familiar with the book, CGI series and the movie (dare I say movies...). May I say here to its credit that Mongoose has done a masterful job at blending the disparate sources into its own very strong background. As Scipio said, expanding upon this background within the text of any new rules can only help to flesh out the game's universe.

For me, the poll doesn't hold as much of an influence as Mongoose's current investment. To drop the entire previous commitment might do more financial damage than to just tilt forward into the wind and finish the "experiment".

I'd say it would be critical to refocus as well upon the chinks in the new rules before they are printed, such as the points previously made re: BF:E. Since a Bug Tanker is a tank in any another game, let it charge over infantry during its move and let the dice drop as they might upon those poor MI. Call it "ROAdkill CHarge", and any survivors are forced into a mandatory beat-feet reaction. Then release a BF:E FAQ. Even CTA2e already has one, and it's a game that was just released...

 

[LaranosTZ]

Excuse me while I have a grammar nazi moment,

THERE IS NO WORD IRREGARDLESS!!!

Regardless is the word you use in any circumstance that you think 'irregardless' would apply.

That is all.

Moment Over,

:roll:

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

Excuse me while I have a grammar nazi moment,

THERE IS NO WORD IRREGARDLESS!!!

Regardless is the word you use in any circumstance that you think 'irregardless' would apply.

That is all.

Moment Over,

:roll:

My apologies for typing in haste.

 

[lt.harper]

For the coment on the kids are only at GW store, its not true for my ariu( how ever you spell it :roll: ) I seen some kids come to the local store, and they dont play GW games.

 

[Rob_A]

Excuse me while I have a grammar nazi moment,

THERE IS NO WORD IRREGARDLESS!!!

Regardless is the word you use in any circumstance that you think 'irregardless' would apply.

That is all.

Moment Over,

:roll:

We all make mistakes

 

[LaranosTZ]

Hehehe, sorry about that, overreaction to the fact that I've seen that word used at least a dozen times in various posts over the forums I view just in the last couple of days.

 

[ScipioAmericanus]

Hi All!

I'll wade in again.

This is liable to go long...so indulge me. I'm feeling "verbose."

Question: WHAT was MOST responsible for SST not taking-off like we all know it should have?

The idea of pre-paints came along well after SST's lackluster showing, so...win, lose, or draw...the idea of pre-paints is, at best, a secondary issue.

Hint: It wasn't the rules: the game won at Origins '05.

In Marketing 101 you learn about the "4 P's." In MBA school (particularly if you're specialising in Marketing) you get hammered on them. They are:

Product
Price
Place (Distribution)
Promotion

Look at SST in terms of these four crucial elements to business success, and you will begin to see what went "wrong." Score SST yourself on a scale of 1 to 10 on each category.

Here're my opinions, but they're nothing new:

Product: Wildly inconsistent quality. Some sculpts are actually targets of derision. Overall quality not on par with competitors. Delayed releases. Re-called releases. Cancellations of announced releases. Customer feedback indicates a high proportion of mis-casts and mis-packs. Plastic product assembly confusing. (2+)

Price: Well in line with competitors. In fact, better than many competitors in several products. However, several publications failed to achieve price vs. value test. Several products were enormously over-priced given the quality, and likewise fail the same test. (4+)

Place: MGP seems to have an adequate distribution network in place; however, when I personally stopped trying to promote SST, four FLGS's I had personally talked to said they had no idea about how to get MGP products...and had never heard of SST. If you guys at MGP are relying on Alliance here in the US, then read below: (5)

Promotion: Matt, here is where you guys TOTALLY screwed up (IMHO). I wish I could award NEGATIVE points. I am the absolute SST FOOL!!!!!! I've been hooked on the book since I first read it in 1970 or '71. I even teach it. I'm also a rabid wargamer for going on 30 years now. I found out about SST:TMG quite by accident...in a very brief article before the initial release. (0)

Released product also "promotes," and again, MGP gets a (0). Several of the publications to date have felt like they were thrown together at the last minute. Again, Yanner's artwork for the cover of the Pathfinders book was some of the most incredible I have ever seen: it set the tone for a masterpiece.... we got a letdown.

You guys specialize in RPG's, so you should know this a priori: if it's not compelling and immersive, it won't sell!

WHO are your repeat customers?

Are they the "instant gratification until I get bored and move on to the next latest fad" crowd, or are they the wargamers who will keep buying until the cows come home?

The first crowd already think your pre-paints are sh*t compared to Heroclix, D&D, AT-43, etc. The second crowd are...worrying.

SIMPLE:

Incredible figs
Tweek the rules
More fluff
More promotion

Simple.

Regards.

 

[ScipioAmericanus]

Oh...one more thing...

The decision to turn S&P to .pdf, IMHO, was ill-advised.

WHO is your audience now? Those of us that already know about MGP, and come to the web site. Probably most distributors do, but they're not exactly trumpeting SST, BF:Evo, etc.

You cut costs...but at WHAT cost?

Explain to me exactly HOW S&P is supposed to get new...or even repeat business? What's the point? How can you compete with a nice, slick, glossy pub that people can hold in their hands?

If you have to force your potential customers to find out about your product, then you're doomed.

I would expect that if you ask the average wargamer if they'd heard of or read S&P in the last 6 mos. you'd get about a 20% "yes" rate overall.

Contrary to popular wisdom, most decision-makers prefer hard-copy, printed media.

Regards.

 

[MongooseMatt]

The decision to turn S&P to .pdf, IMHO, was ill-advised.

An interesting analysis overall, but I have to pick you up on this one. Turning S&P into a PDF was one of the smartest moves we ever made.

As a print magazine, we topped around 3,000 readers maximum. As a PDF, we clear 65,000 every month, and that number is increasing, month on month.

Our problem with S&P is that we do not currently leverage it enough (hours in the day) but, as a base line, it is extremely well positioned.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Lorcan Nagle, your whole post was "Tomatoes/Tomaytoes" and didn't really address anything - just a re-hash of whats gone before!

I appreciate that people want to be supportive of the pre-paints idea, but the vaster majority of consumers won't play table top games.

Its a 'cottage industry' for want of a better term, and trying to make it more accessable etc really is a big folly!

See, I'm not so sure that the vast majority won't support pre-paints. CMGs do sell, there was varying degrees of excitement for BF:Evo and SST:Evo, AT-43 and so on. The execution may be lacking, and that in turn may have killed PPMs, but the principle is decent at least.

But CMG's are a totally different animal, there is no comparison between the two markets.

There is though, or at least a healthy crossover. Pretty much every CMG I've seen is either a full-on wargame or a variation thereon. There's direct correlations between CMG and wargame rulesets. Minis are minis, and while the distribution vector is different, when you're actually playing the game it's pretty much the same.

 

[Galatea]

I like S&P as pdf much more than as printed media.

As for Scipio's analysis I'd say:

- The product is all right. The rules are brilliant with just some smaller flaws (8). Far above average.
The Arachnid Miniatures are awesome, the MI is all right. Some of Minis (LAMI and most of the skinnies range) got indeed scewred up. Alltogether a bit below average (4).

- Price is fine. Even before the 25% off it was below the competitors and especially the arachnid models have a very good price/value-relation.
Some MI and Skinnies aren't that good, but most of them are still okay. Alltogether on average (sometimes above, sometimes below) so I'll give a (5).

- Placement.
This is where I would award negative points (something like -10). I have met loads of people who WANTED to play SST when it came out but COULDN'T, because they where simply no able to get a basic box of the game. The Distribution here was almost not existent.

- Promotion
"Starship Troopers - a minitiature game?" is one of the most frequently asked questions I hear when I'm on Conventions.
Nobody knows that damn game! And those who knew have given up, because they didn't get the product.
There simply is no promontion (except the MI).

Placement and Promotion of Starship Troopers are one the worst I have ever seen. No one knows it and no one could get it (at least availability has gotten better), and that's why the game here in Germany never started.
There are players, there is interest. That's not the problem. Not at all.
The porblem is the know it and the get it. Entirely.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

See, I'm not so sure that the vast majority won't support pre-paints. CMGs do sell, there was varying degrees of excitement for BF:Evo and SST:Evo, AT-43 and so on. The execution may be lacking, and that in turn may have killed PPMs, but the principle is decent at least.

But CMG's are a totally different animal, there is no comparison between the two markets.

There is though, or at least a healthy crossover. Pretty much every CMG I've seen is either a full-on wargame or a variation thereon. There's direct correlations between CMG and wargame rulesets. Minis are minis, and while the distribution vector is different, when you're actually playing the game it's pretty much the same.

So how many Games Stores have you personally worked in then (as experience in MHO counts for more than statistics), I didn't just Manage for Games Workshop.

I've physically SEEN the demographic of customer types in more than one Store, and barring the exception that proves the rule - they really don't cross.

 

[Gauntlet-]

Thats not a fair argument over the internet; how are we to verify one person's experience over anothers? Its not like we know you in person and can guage you fully and verify that you are who you say you are etc. etc. ... its a silly argument of/from authority... with no way to back it up.

The guy has a point; so do you; I think he is wrong to think that they are mostly the same; but that doesn't mean there is no cross-over value or that they are not similar in some ways... they are. The terrain and rules and such are just abstractions and in the end of days there isn't enough difference between the gaming end between CCGs CMGs and Mini Wargaming...

Where it really differs is how Mini Wargames produces the 'craft' and hobby experience stemming from the boards and terrain aspect largely (obviously the models too), the openess for the creative process is 100 fold compared to a CCG or a board game.

And that is just so much more fufilling than a CCG or CMG.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

The difference is I am talking from experience, and he is talking from opinion.

A couple of the members on here know me from retail, and will be aware I talk from a 'hands on' position.

If you speak to wholesalers in the UK (which I do, quite often) the CMG's sell in droves to stores that specialize in Comics and CCGs, but sell in significantly lower numbers to stores that deal more in RPGs and Wargames.

The numbers are there, its a simple fact.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Except I'm not talking about sales, I'm talking about the games themselves.

 

[Gauntlet-]

The point I made; was that your experience cannot be verified over the internet and isn't a legitimate argument in and of itself.

I like you I do; but you have been touting that 'I'm right because I worked in the industry etc.' attitude way too much. It doesn't mean a damn thing because we don't actually know your not some fifteen year old jerking us around.

You make consistent and valid points all the time, your a good poster, i'm not trying to start a fight or be an asshole. But you gotta realize that backing your points up with just 'Im experienced' is just not enough when on the internet. The internet allows anyone to pretend to be just about anyone, so your credentials in the real world just don't carry the same weight here in the 'fake' world.

I've been gaming for my entire life, so I know I'm right.











See how that doesn't work? You can't argue with someone's argument of 'I'm expereinced' we have no way to really verify that you are, and more importantly it doesn't neccessarily count for much. You can be experience all you like and still be absolutely wrong, you are not usualy, but trumping someone with that card eliminates more discussion because people don't want to come out and say 'Screw your experience you probablly sucked' which is about the only counter argument to it.

SO please use a real argument, level with people and explain why your ideas are more valid, or better, it takes more effort but it is better for discussion, the community, and person you debate with.