Pre-Paint or not Pre-Paint, that is the Question . . . . .

[darklord4]

Just Look at those poll results and think for a minute.

Before making any conclusions, I'd like to see some bigger voting numbers than 50 people voting. If SST is selling to only 50 people, there are bigger problems...

As a few people have mentioned in this thread, putting all the eggs in one basket might really hurt if it fails. In hindsight, trying prepainted warrior and LAMI squads, possibly together in a starter set, to test the waters might have been a better idea.

A few posts have described not being keen on prepaints as a whole, but the prepaints would work well for filling in rank and file soldiers.

Currently, I am still holding on for a final announcement as to what the plan for the game is(the timeframe has obviously changed). If done right though, a good release of prepainted bugs, exo suits and forth might catch on. Only big SST fans will buy into the LAMI, because truly, if you are new to wargaming, are you going to go for the leaping power suits, snarling bug swarm, the robot machines, or the plain dudes with guns?

I don't dislike the idea of prepainted minis, except for the premium I would have to pay for new stuff like MI flying units, but I won't be buying prepaints myself as I have a backlog stock of minis to paint. I would gladly play against a prepainted army though. Heck, I'd gladly play against an unpainted army too.

 

[ScipioAmericanus]

Guys, watching this poll with great interest - by all means encourage other players to participate.

Hi Matt!!!

Here's my opinion (but you already know it):

1st: QUALITY SCULPTS! No more "monkey women" or Skinny Slaves like poor little "Tiny." No more BF:Evo wage-slave-painted Marines permanently attached to the binding straps.

2nd: Pre-paints should ONLY be for a "starter" set. PERIOD.

3rd: The "meat" or balance of the line should be UN-painted and sculpted to such a high caliber that SST fans will weep and hug each other.

4th: Kits. Almost everyone wants air assets. The prototypes looked GREAT! Think plastic. Think "we need to get all those dropships in production!" Don't forget the decals!

5th: MORE FLUFF! Make the SST universe compelling! A place your customers want to spend a lot of time in.

5th: BE A LEADER, NOT A FOLLOWER. You did that with the Origins win. Don't chase fads, or what is hot at the moment.

Taco sends her best to Talley!

Regards,

Scipio

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Only place I can disagree with you is pre-paints. I say, no pre-paints in any set. Full stop.

Let the new gamers get a real taste of the wargaming hobby with unpainted plastic kits in the start box. It works for GW and it'll continue to work for any other company.

Using pre-paints to "fill in" line units won't work either. They'll never be consistent with people's own painted models and colour schemes. Forget pre-paints, that way lies disaster. Concentrate on real gaming and real modelling.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

Why oh Why has no one EVER done an all encompassing Starter.

The EE ALMOST got it right with the 'Battle for Skull Pass Hobby Set', except that the 'mini' paint pots are pointless - not enough paint to base coat a f*rt Lol!

Plus the choice of armies weren't the most logical, picking the two Armies that are most popular amongst older gamers for a starter set wasn't the brightest thing I have ever seen.

BUT - putting two playable forces and paints in the box, genius.

Instant accessability (except for the Army Choices Lol).

The starter is important, it should be 'tempting' to new players BUT usefull enough that established gamers should want (whether they do or no is immaterial, the desire should still be there) to buy multiple copies.

Putting pre-paints in a starter, but having the majority of the rest of the line as hobby kits is illogical. You set the wrong tone with the starter, which would make the rest of the range LESS accessable not more so.

There should (in an ideal world) be three starters for each game.

A 'Hobby Starter Set', with two small (but balance armies), rules, mini-army lists, (with a couple of options for each army that AREN'T included in the game - but are readily buyable as reasonable cost blisters or boxes. This would enfuse people with the idea of adding to their forces) and some sort of hobby element. Whether it be paints or glue, or simply a comprehensive guide to building and painting your Armies.

The other two should be 'Army Starter Sets', each with a slightly larger force. But they come with all the elements needed to play the game and paint the models, just as in the 'Hobby Starter Set'. These are for people who either have an opponent who will buy the opposing Army Starter, or for people who will buy BOTH Army Starters because they want bigger Armies straight away (they do exist, I bought two SST Starter boxes myself immediately).

I know a little about marketing and a LOT about what customers want (working on the front line for the EE as both a Hobby Assistant, then Manager taught me a lot about customer needs), and that is basically what the new punters wanted from 40k/WFB.

When GW had the buy a Core Game and get a paint set free promotion, we sold a SILLY amount of Boxed Games. Most people want to paint and model, and WILL do so quite happily. But they are more likely to take the leap if the whole package is good value for money and easily accessable when they start the Hobby.

Once they start, and get 'hooked' value and ease become secondary to their needs, and so will go the extra mile for their passtime.

(Mongooses Marauder Platoon's and Arachnid Invasion Force's were genius, all they needed were mini rules etc).

Pre-Paints do not present good value to most people, the majority of gamers spend more time painting and modelling than playing. The reasons for this are simple, they don't have to arrange an opponent or a set time to meet to play. Its readily accessable part of the hobby as they can do it as and when they have a spare 30 minutes or so.

People saying 'they don't have the time' isn't really a fair analysis of their situation, most people do not spend every waking moment of their day constantly active, they will spend a considerable amount of time each day sitting in front of the TV and pretty much doing nothing or spending (for example) just a little too much time playing PC/Console Games (which really is wasted time if you ask me Lol). Anyone who says they don't is exaggerating somewhat.

I ensure I have a space where my paints and models are readily accessable (in a drawer on my PC desk) and I will spend 10 minutes here, and 30 minutes there painting. Rather than doing 'nothing in particular' with my spare moments. I was surpised when I started doing it how much painting you actually get done, without being actually concious of it!

Anyway, back on topic. Pre-Paints are a 'fad' (in the respect its a new and excting idea to some Gamers), Wargaming and the more traditional painting and modelling are not, and never will be. They might have dips in popularity, but they will never go away.

 

[ScipioAmericanus]

Hi LT!

Well, I think my stand on pre-paints is pretty much common knowledge, and the only reason I offered the "starter set" solution was because MGP seem to be married to the idea of pre-paints.

Honestly, I wish that the idea of pre-paints would just GO AWAY.

I agree with 100% of what you said in your post! Judging by the poll so far, not all that many people are excited about SST pre-paints either. Besides, since they come from China, why risk getting lead poisoning from the paint? :lol:

I think I said in an earlier post that IMHO pre-paints largely appealed to a "transient" crowd and not to the hard-core fans that will keep a game going. I have to believe that those hard-core fans are almost entirely modellers and painters.

Also, like you, I tend to try to find some time every day to do a little work...and it's surprising how much time that winds up to be! You posted GREAT advice to anyone that tries to use the lame excuse that they don't have any time to model or paint!!! Bull! Put down Halo 3 or Bioshock, get off the couch, and put 15 minutes into modelling and painting every day.

I vote that we all agree to put a stake in the heart of SST pre-paints once and for all, insist that MGP hire high-calibre sculptors, insist that MGP get those air assets going, and resurrect this corpse that is SST!!!!

Regards,

Scipio

 

[Galatea]

Just Look at those poll results and think for a minute.

Before making any conclusions, I'd like to see some bigger voting numbers than 50 people voting. If SST is selling to only 50 people, there are bigger problems...

As a few people have mentioned in this thread, putting all the eggs in one basket might really hurt if it fails. In hindsight, trying prepainted warrior and LAMI squads, possibly together in a starter set, to test the waters might have been a better idea.

Rackham tested the waters and found out that they were deeper than they could handle.
Same with Mongoose and BFE - I still assume that the delay of SSTE and the hold on BFE was an emergency brake to prevent a total desaster.

 

[KJ]

IMO the problem with any new SST stuff (pre-painted or not) is going to be getting the retailers to trust MGP with their money and shelf space. Y'all pulled the plug over a year ago, killing off (at least in my area) the small but growing interest (amongst both players AND retailers) in the game. I haven't played but one SST game since last year's announcement and have recently been considering selling off my collection.

Would I buy pre-paints? Probably not. Re-sculpted or new plastic kits that I had to assemble and paint myself? Definitely, opponents or no opponents.

And I don't think you're going to get too many more responses to this poll, since most of the old-school regulars don't visit often (if at all). Possibly a better way to get a larger sampling would be to ask TGN or some other website to run a poll to get a larger sampling, along with supporting commentary.

 

[ScipioAmericanus]

IMO the problem with any new SST stuff (pre-painted or not) is going to be getting the retailers to trust MGP with their money and shelf space. Y'all pulled the plug over a year ago, killing off (at least in my area) the small but growing interest (amongst both players AND retailers) in the game.

Well said, KJ. Trust is a big issue. MGP need to realize this, maybe even eat some "humble pie" and admit that they just didn't get it right. Marketing 101: even though consumers may act like lemmings, they're actually pretty smart, and can smell bullsh*t a mile away...and a company's attempts at damage control about 10 miles away. TRUTH is always the best option.

I share your pain. I tried my darndest to get interest in SST at my FLGS...but when the crappy figs started showing up, interest took a nosedive. Pre-paints sealed the game's fate. All his SST stock was eBay'd long ago...and he can't GIVE away the BF:Evo stuff.

Meanwhile, despite all the egg on my face, I convinced the owner to stock Flames of War. Guess what? He recovered his initial investment in a little over a month, we've got some pretty excited people...and there's not a pre-paint in the entire line. In fact, a few of us were talking the other day about using A&A pre-paints as proxies to get even more people interested and the universal opinion was "only as demos and only as an absolute last resort."

In MGP's defense, some of the miniatures were absolutely brilliant. The ones that people remember, however, are the ones that blow goats (Skinnie Slaves...).

The bad figs, the poor layout and design of the supplements, the "shotgun" approach to the Skinnies, the on-again, off-again air assets, and the total lack of "fluff" were the primary complaints about SST in my area. When pre-paints were announced, people said "screw that!" and SST was dead. The BF:Evo pre-paints arrived...and MGP became persona non grata. The owner told me that he has never sold a SINGLE thing for BF:Evo and he is only selling MGP stuff at cons at deep discount to get rid of it.

I hope you're reading this, Matt. Your company has taken a huge black eye (at least in my area), and if you insist on going down this pre-paint lunacy path and dumbing down the rules to the point where they can be included in a box of figs, SST will never be viewed as a serious game...and will ultimately fail. You'll get incremental sales at best.

Go the opposite direction: insanely great sculpts (I got some Forge World Chaos militia today and my jaw literally dropped!!!), ENHANCE and EXPAND the rules, and start releasing some MEAT in the form of supplements. SST will be taken seriously, I can almost guarantee it.

Oh! Instead of spending your money paying the Chinese to paint marginal figs, why not put that money to use in a better way...as in a nice, glossy, series of promo pieces, top-notch publications, and MARKETING.

Regards.

 

[Mage]

Just a quick thuoght here, if there are members here of other forums for miniature gaming of any kind, could they replicate this poll and put it up there, and bring the results here in a week, or if you print one and put it in your local club, do the same.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

I agreee with about 90% of what Scipio said - especially the fluff and marketing aspects. Take a look at the wargames which have endured through the years - most of them have a rich and constantly evolving background like BattleTech.

I don't necessarily agree with the prepaints=lunacy part though. While many prepaint games have come and gone, Heroclix has been a consistent seller, showing that there is a market if sold to the right people. I think that consistently well-produced figures can and will sell to a large cross-section of gamers. It's anecdotal evidence and that's not worth much when compared to hard numbers , but I know plenty of people who love pre-paints because they want to wargame, but have no interest or aptitude towards modelling. And quite frankly, why exclude people who can't or won't spend hours with glue, pin vices, files and an array of paint getting their models presentable?

That's not to say that modellers can't also been included - minis could be sold unpainted (or even partially painted, think of Bandai's line of Gundam kits, which are produced in multicoloured plastic, often with different coloured pieces on one sprue, which coresponds to the mecha's colour scheme)

I don't think pre-paints are the future of gaming, but I do think that they have their place in wargames outside of just being a fad (and mongoose keeping ActA in the non-prepaint, non plastic field is evidence that they don't either). I love that I've a couple of fully-playable BFEvo armies with no more effort than paying my money and opening the boxes. I also love my old-school MI army, my Warmachine and Hordes stuff, not to mention the legions of BattleTech units that I've painted down through the years.

I love to model and I love to game, and if I'd had to assemble and paint all my evo minis, I might still be stuck on very low-level games rather than already being able to field thousands of points already.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Taco sends her best to Talley!

 

[darklord4]

I don't necessarily agree with the prepaints=lunacy part though. While many prepaint games have come and gone, Heroclix has been a consistent seller, showing that there is a market if sold to the right people.

The clix games are not good examples in my opinion as they have the collectible driving factor. The 'Gotta catch 'em all' nature keeps people buying.

That's not to say that modellers can't also been included - minis could be sold unpainted (or even partially painted, think of Bandai's line of Gundam kits, which are produced in multicoloured plastic, often with different coloured pieces on one sprue, which coresponds to the mecha's colour scheme)

This is interesting. The initial PAMI in the starter set could have simply had a green plastic mold. The bugs could have been black I guess. Some models would require remolding to put the parts on different sprues for the different colors and also to make parts for the different colors, e.g. making the bug body have more parts so you can make parts yellow. I forget what the molding process that puts different colors on the same sprue is called, but Bandai owns that technology.

The poll here is kind of flawed in that a majority of people that would want SST prepaints don't even come to this board. IMO, the biggest attraction of prepaints is to get them into the gaming hands of new people so that I can play against them.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

The poll here is kind of flawed in that a majority of people that would want SST prepaints don't even come to this board.

That is a TOTALLY redundant point, how could you possibly know that!

 

[Quark]

Lt., I think you make some good points with one exception. It was easy for GW to do a "comprehensive" starter set because they had a comprehensive product line. MGP for example, doesn't have it's own paint range like GW does so a truly comprehensive package might not work. On the other hand, another starter set like the original SST box would be great imo!


OK, so, in answer to Mage's question, I've kind of already been taking an informal survey amongst the players at my LGS (mind you, it's a primarily RPG based group) and the answers actually really surprised me. Other than myself there are only one or two other guys left who actually paint anymore. I realized in asking everyone about the pre-paints that most of the regular wargamers had either myself or someone else paint up their armies for them, so in a way, they were ALREADY PLAYING WITH PREPAINTS!

The biggest concerns I hear are:

Too expensive
We don't trust MGP
Too expensive
Will it still be around in a year?
And of course, the perennial favorite: It's too expensive!

I've been able to get some moderate interest in AT 43 (hey-I love to paint and model, but I like to game too), but people are still concerned over the cost. So at least where I am, it's not so much about pre-paints as it is almost EVERYTHING ELSE. I'm not quite sure how you overcome that, but if you do Matt, there are plenty of players in Pittsburgh who would gladly use pre-paints.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

Lt., I think you make some good points with one exception. It was easy for GW to do a "comprehensive" starter set because they had a comprehensive product line. MGP for example, doesn't have it's own paint range like GW does so a truly comprehensive package might not work. On the other hand, another starter set like the original SST box would be great imo!

After working at the 'pointy end' of retail, I can tell you thats what NEW gamers want. (I also did make the point of saying that if the paint option wasn't a possibility, to include a comprehensive modeling and painting guide).

If a starter is 'sexy', people will buy it - cost ALMOST becomes immaterial. A single unit (pre-painted or not) with a Stat Card and a Rules Sheet is not enough incentice for the greater majority of Gamers, and even LESS of an incentive if the potential buyer isn't a Gamer already!

OK, so, in answer to Mage's question, I've kind of already been taking an informal survey amongst the players at my LGS (mind you, it's a primarily RPG based group) and the answers actually really surprised me. Other than myself there are only one or two other guys left who actually paint anymore. I realized in asking everyone about the pre-paints that most of the regular wargamers had either myself or someone else paint up their armies for them, so in a way, they were ALREADY PLAYING WITH PREPAINTS!

That is NOT pre-paints, a person who plays with another persons work ISN'T using pre-paints. I used to paint to order, and my customers were VERY picky about what they got for their money. They wanted their figures to look good and individual, if someone else paints your army for you - you get choice of colours etc.

With pre-paints, you do not.

 

[Quark]

You're right about them not truly being pre-paints, I guess what I'm saying is that, unfortunately, most of the would be wargamers in my area just don't have that big a preference. I think they'd rather have the nicer "pro-painted" figs, but since they were not painting their own stuff anyway, they really didn't care as much as you or I might. Remember too, that I'm in the US. Not to stereotype here, but in my experience the "Hobby" part of wargaming was always more popular in your neck of the woods than it is in mine, so that could have something to do with it as well. I do know that a lot of people around here like the idea of a game that's ready "out of the box".

I remember when SST v1 came out it took us almost a month to get in a single game because it took everyone so long to assemble/paint their figs, and read the rules.LOL I think that, unfortunately, pre-paints are probably here to stay partly for that exact reason. People just don't have the time or desire anymore to do things like paint, and that's what I keep hearing over and over again at my LGS. I for one love the sense of satisfaction and accomplishment I get fom fielding a well painted and assembled army. On the other hand I'm 28 with no real responsabilities beyond feeding my dog and showing up to work Monday through Friday, and that makes a real difference when it comes to how you spend time.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

You're right about them not truly being pre-paints, I guess what I'm saying is that, unfortunately, most of the would be wargamers in my area just don't have that big a preference. I think they'd rather have the nicer "pro-painted" figs, but since they were not painting their own stuff anyway, they really didn't care as much as you or I might. Remember too, that I'm in the US. Not to stereotype here, but in my experience the "Hobby" part of wargaming was always more popular in your neck of the woods than it is in mine, so that could have something to do with it as well. I do know that a lot of people around here like the idea of a game that's ready "out of the box".

I remember when SST v1 came out it took us almost a month to get in a single game because it took everyone so long to assemble/paint their figs, and read the rules.LOL I think that, unfortunately, pre-paints are probably here to stay partly for that exact reason. People just don't have the time or desire anymore to do things like paint, and that's what I keep hearing over and over again at my LGS. I for one love the sense of satisfaction and accomplishment I get fom fielding a well painted and assembled army. On the other hand I'm 28 with no real responsabilities beyond feeding my dog and showing up to work Monday through Friday, and that makes a real difference when it comes to how you spend time.

I think most companies saw the success of pre-painted Collectable Miniatures Games and saw it as a way of drawing people into the wargaming fold.

Big Mistake.

CMG's have the greed factor (I collect the Star Wars cmg and see it all the time), must have the rarest hardest miniatures. They appeal to the boardgame crowd and the CCG crowd equally. As a Wargamer, if I wasn't such a BIG Star Wars fan I wouldn't have bothered (I re-paint mine).

Wargamers have a particular mindset, so pre-paints will have little or no influence on 'potential wargamers'. They either are or they aren't, making something easier and 'disposable' as entertainment won't swing them either way.

I've seen it when my staff ran intro GW Intro Games, you can literally tell those folks who are 'in it for the long haul' and those customers who will buy the core game, and a few paints. Then put them in a cupboard and forget about them.

Pre-Paints aren't a selling point from that perspective, non wargamers have trouble enough seeing the value in the hobby without making the product more expensive!

 

[Quark]

"...non wargamers have trouble enough seeing the value in the hobby without making the product more expensive!"


Agreed 100 percent! That's what I keep running into.


I'm curious though, as it's something I've never kept track of, but in the long run is it really more expensive? I just thought of this, but if you don't have to buy paint anymore, will the cost eventually even out? I don't think it would for me because I had ways of making my paint last forever (I've had a few of my pots since 1994 or '95 and they're still good LOL), but I know people who use to blow through paint like it was nothing.

Interestingly enough for me though, while I personally despise the idea of pre-paints for a game that I've already got tons of painted minis for, but I don't mind the idea for a new game (AT-43 for example). I guess I'm on the fence about the entire thing. I'd just like to sit down and have a few decent games with someone and not worry about all this, but even that seems like asking too much anymore . I'm afraid that the real truth (at least in my area) is that wargamers in any form (pre-painted or otherwise), are just a dying breed.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

"...non wargamers have trouble enough seeing the value in the hobby without making the product more expensive!"


Agreed 100 percent! That's what I keep running into.


I'm curious though, as it's something I've never kept track of, but in the long run is it really more expensive? I just thought of this, but if you don't have to buy paint anymore, will the cost eventually even out? I don't think it would for me because I had ways of making my paint last forever (I've had a few of my pots since 1994 or '95 and they're still good LOL), but I know people who use to blow through paint like it was nothing.

Interestingly enough for me though, while I personally despise the idea of pre-paints for a game that I've already got tons of painted minis for, but I don't mind the idea for a new game (AT-43 for example). I guess I'm on the fence about the entire thing. I'd just like to sit down and have a few decent games with someone and not worry about all this, but even that seems like asking too much anymore . I'm afraid that the real truth (at least in my area) is that wargamers in any form (pre-painted or otherwise), are just a dying breed.

Tell me about it, my 'group' are VERY stuck in the Mud.

Only myself (and my oppo John) are willing to play other games.

What makes any hobby good value is the amount of time you spend on it, if you don't have to paint anything or stick anything together that part of the value equation is lost. Thereby making it more expensive immediately!

I still have pots from years ago, the only paint I tend to buy are colours I don't have or those I use a lot (like black and white).

 

[CaseyGMU]

I know at least 10 people that are waiting for the prepaints.

If they're good they'll buy them. If not they won't.

They're not coming on the boards because they're not hardcore miniature gamers. They liked the games of BF:Evo we've played but they'd prefer the sci fi setting.

They have no interest in painting, either.

I look forward to the prepaints. It'll allow people like me to keep collecting and painting new miniatures and it'll allow people that don't want to paint to play as well.

I'm happy with the figures and the rules available now. SST is a complete game as is. I'm happy with it.

Adding prepaints and a new set of rules might kick start the game again and will open up its appeal to more people. It isn't like we're getting prepaints at the cost of losing unpainted figures.