Potential Problems with Arms & Equipment Book
- Thread starter klingsor
- Start date
iamtim said:
Replace "everyone" with "a large percent of the population" if it makes you feel better.
(I'll leave it ambiguous if this is a majority or minority.) It still doesn't change my point, which is that this is a very silly place to mix common everyday terms. It'd be like changing a bunch of terms about football for no good reason: some people aren't fans and wouldn't notice, but most people (fans or not) would be taken out of context by randomly changing terms.Interesting. Whether or not most people are like you or like me, the fact remains that a very sizeable population (whether a minority or majority) would be taken completely out of context by that. If you have to choose between the two, you should choose to be correct IMO.
FYI, a rifle is rifled (hence the name): has a groove cut into it so that the projectile spins when it leave it, giving better range and accuracy. A smooth-bore has no rifling. A shot gun is a smooth bore weapon. Most weapons before the middle of the 19th Century are smooth bore. Rifles start to be introduced in the Crimean War and are the main weapon in use during the American Civil War. Before that time period, if someone refers to a rifle, that's a big deal and immediately puts into my mind that there's something interesting going on behind the fact that such a weapon is in use.
burdock said:
A rifle is a shoulder firearm that is rifled: has a spiral groove cut into the bore to make the projectile spin. In modern terms, unless something is a shot gun (or rare musket) and fired from the shoulder it's a rifle. A shot gun is a shoulder firearm that is not rifled (therefore, not a rifle) that is generally used to fire shot (hence the name). A musket is a shoulder firearm that generally fires a single shot but is smooth bore (therefore, not a rifle).
In the case of a supplement dealing with older firearms, using the terms rifle and musket make sense and would lead to the least confusion.
burdock said:
You're mixing terms here. A pistol is a short single handed weapon. In theory it could with be rifled or smooth bore, but still isn't a "rifle". (Isn't English such a wonderful language!
I bet this is easier in German.) This is where the issue really comes from. In English we don't have a slick term to refer to all shoulder firearms (that's probably as close as it gets right there) in one group, but we have pistol to refer to all short firearms.I still stand by what I originally said. I don't see any reason to use incorrect terminology. It will confuse those that know the terms and either way won't make a difference to those that don't.
I'm not a complete pendant. For a general modern book, I wouldn't have issues with someone mixing up various types of automatic weapons, even though there's a distinct difference between submachine gun, machine gun, and assault rifle. (OTOH, if someone writes a WWII supplement, they need to get those right to hold the mood.)
Fire arms in Glorantha
Dwarves/Mostali are noted to use Muskets in the third age on the odd occasion as well as the lethal disorder kegs, so they may be kicking about in the 2nd age.
But they'll no doubt release a horde of Gobblers to retrieve such stuff if they fall into the wrong hands (aka player characters)
It would be nice to differenciate between smoothbores and rifled weapons, also the 2ndary effect of propellents (ie clouds of smoke from muskets and flintlocks when they are discharged and noise)
Range is the big difference though.
It amazing how much stopping power archaic armour has against modern firearms... literally none.
Plate armour is probably the wrong thing to wear to be shot in.
If hit the bullet will generally punches through the armour, hit bone and flesh - if your lucky it punches back out.
If unlucky the bullet loses enough kinetic energy to be deflect back into the tissue off the inside of the armour and bounce around a little... :shock:
Dwarves/Mostali are noted to use Muskets in the third age on the odd occasion as well as the lethal disorder kegs, so they may be kicking about in the 2nd age.
But they'll no doubt release a horde of Gobblers to retrieve such stuff if they fall into the wrong hands (aka player characters)
It would be nice to differenciate between smoothbores and rifled weapons, also the 2ndary effect of propellents (ie clouds of smoke from muskets and flintlocks when they are discharged and noise)
Range is the big difference though.
It amazing how much stopping power archaic armour has against modern firearms... literally none.
Plate armour is probably the wrong thing to wear to be shot in.
If hit the bullet will generally punches through the armour, hit bone and flesh - if your lucky it punches back out.
If unlucky the bullet loses enough kinetic energy to be deflect back into the tissue off the inside of the armour and bounce around a little... :shock:
Nickbergquist
Mongoose
I think I'm going to have to vote for "accuracy" on this one. I would argue the following case:
1. Gamers who don't know the difference between rifled weapons and smooth-bore will not be harmed by a little bit of knowledge in the text.
2. RPGs have a long tradition of being used by educators and parents to teach children, and I know it worked for me as a kid. Being accurate about something as basic as this is key to such people who would like to use the game for accuracy. And again, a little bit of correct info here will not hurt the use of the material for those who don't care about the difference.
3. If Runequest has the potential to be expanded in to different setting and supplements (modern, future, etc) through the OGL, it's probably a good idea to keep the technology setting-accurate, otherwise there's the potential for confusion down the road when actual rifled weapons need to be statted out. Again, technicalities, I know....but I repeat: It doesn't hurt the text to be accurate on this. It only enhances the book for everyone. Thoe who don't care won't be bothered anyway, but by being accurate, you will not disenfranchise or alienate the hardcore gamers like myself who prefer a well-researched product.
4. Finally, if you have a chapter on accurate firearms rules, that allows you to then include a chapter on fantasy firearms, and we all know that's what everyone REALLY wants :wink:
1. Gamers who don't know the difference between rifled weapons and smooth-bore will not be harmed by a little bit of knowledge in the text.
2. RPGs have a long tradition of being used by educators and parents to teach children, and I know it worked for me as a kid. Being accurate about something as basic as this is key to such people who would like to use the game for accuracy. And again, a little bit of correct info here will not hurt the use of the material for those who don't care about the difference.
3. If Runequest has the potential to be expanded in to different setting and supplements (modern, future, etc) through the OGL, it's probably a good idea to keep the technology setting-accurate, otherwise there's the potential for confusion down the road when actual rifled weapons need to be statted out. Again, technicalities, I know....but I repeat: It doesn't hurt the text to be accurate on this. It only enhances the book for everyone. Thoe who don't care won't be bothered anyway, but by being accurate, you will not disenfranchise or alienate the hardcore gamers like myself who prefer a well-researched product.
4. Finally, if you have a chapter on accurate firearms rules, that allows you to then include a chapter on fantasy firearms, and we all know that's what everyone REALLY wants :wink:
Nickbergquist
Mongoose
Oh, and one more reason: If I am going to use Runequest for an historically accurate setting, then I will ultimately need historically accurate rules. And I do not like to houserule. Having to houserule a product is a killer for me. Why houserul for Runequest when I can go get the exactly accurate material I need over in GURPS, for example? Therefore, making the material accurate will also enhance the product in the face of the competition. Hell, I can't think of any D20 supplement offhand which has provided accurate firearms rules by period, for example! If Runequest actually had this, it would he ahead of the game, for once.
haargald said:
The peeve is about making things less clear than they would be with correct terminology. If this made anything simpler, I'd be all for it.
HyrumOWC said:
See above. If it made things simpler, I'd be all for it. In this case, it's both simpler and more realistic to simply use correct English. My experience is that this is the case most of the time. Then if someone doesn't know the word, they can at least look it up and figure it out.
Anyhow, this doesn't seem like it's going anywhere, so I'd prefer to drop it. I don't need ganged up on for pointing out writing errors...for that, I'll just wait until I'm in front of the people who actually pay me to teach them how to write clearly and concisely!
Couldn't agree more with Nickbergquist. Very well said.
The important question is. Could you change anything in this book even if you wanted to? I mean, is the draft already final and Mongoose won't accept any changes?
I ask because I pointed out some fairly obvious errors (repeated text, typo) in the Companion previews a couple months in advance and now I find them in the published text.
The important question is. Could you change anything in this book even if you wanted to? I mean, is the draft already final and Mongoose won't accept any changes?
I ask because I pointed out some fairly obvious errors (repeated text, typo) in the Companion previews a couple months in advance and now I find them in the published text.
HyrumOWC said:
I have mixed feelings about GURPS, too complex for my tastes, but it really shows that they spent alot of time thinking about the systems that they put into that game - if you look at the considerable length of time 3rd edition was in print, and how well the rules held together throughout that time. And the supplements are famous for their depth, accuracy and utility. As for the educational value of RPGs, I first learned what rifling was in one of their tech supplements (IIRC High Tech?)... Anyway, I vote for accuracy, if it's not already too late.
Ok. Maybe this is a bit obvious, but if you're going to use generic "game terms", why not then use terms that *don't* confuse themselves with real terms?
Given the rules of the game that exist already, wouldn't it be simplier to just refer to different types of firearms as "one handed" and "two handed"? In game terms, what we really need to know is whether this weapon is fired and held with one or two hands, right?
This immediately removes the confusion over what to call a "long barreled, shoulder fitted, held in both hands" weapon and it has the added benefit of defining its use in game terms (one handed versus two handed).
Within those broad catagories, you can then list off different types of firearms, including the specific qualities of each one. This way, if you want to add a "rifle" to the list, you can simply drop it into the 2h firearms table with increased range values.
Seems simple. Does not create conflicting terms. Is accurate with regards to the terms used.
Given the rules of the game that exist already, wouldn't it be simplier to just refer to different types of firearms as "one handed" and "two handed"? In game terms, what we really need to know is whether this weapon is fired and held with one or two hands, right?
This immediately removes the confusion over what to call a "long barreled, shoulder fitted, held in both hands" weapon and it has the added benefit of defining its use in game terms (one handed versus two handed).
Within those broad catagories, you can then list off different types of firearms, including the specific qualities of each one. This way, if you want to add a "rifle" to the list, you can simply drop it into the 2h firearms table with increased range values.
Seems simple. Does not create conflicting terms. Is accurate with regards to the terms used.
Trifletraxor
Mongoose
Exubae said:
I have one player in my game, a jelmre, who's gotten hold of two dwarven-made handguns. He has so far not dared to use them in play as he's afraid of the Gobblers!
SGL.
