My thoughts on the combat chapter

Old timer

Banded Mongoose
I have read through this section a few time now and find that though I like most of the changes, there are (in my opinion) some problems.
Initiative is straight forward, as it always has been. Also nice is the change to allow INT or DEX DM to be used. Ambushes need to be clarified a little, as I read it is seems that the ambusher gets a boon, and the ambushed gets a bane which may be a little harsh, as I would of thought the ambusher getting a boon would be enough. I do like that the dynamic initiative has been removed, it was a nice idea but was either never used in my games, or if used slowed things down.
The use of the tactics skill is much the same as first edition, and I think that leadership skill should also be referenced in the combat chapter as well as explained in the skill chapter, if for no other reason than to prevent flicking back and fourth through the rule book to look up how it works in combat. Hasten seems to work as it always has. I like the inclusion of the opposing forces paragraph, but it is something that I have always done and assumed that is how everyone else does it when it comes to larger fights.
Reactions section is explained well enough. Melee combat is okay as well, but has always seemed a little flat to me in traveller, but that is just me wanting similar detail and options in both range and melee combat.
The task for combat and DM seem to be all very straight forward, I like that cover both gives you a negative DM to be hit, and the cover itself provides some armour as well, though some of the cover values (which I understand are just examples) seem a little low or high and one or two stand in contradiction to other parts of the rules (vehicles mainly, but I will cover that when I write up my thoughts on that chapter). I also do like the rule of any shot over a hundred metres is considered a extreme range attack without a scope.
The trait system for weapons is nice and easy way to describe different weapons effects like armour piercing and auto fire, but this leads me to a problem with the new burst fire rules.
As they currently stand, and assuming I am understanding this correctly, when firing a weapon on burst fire, the damage is increased by +1 per die rolled for damage. So a ACR would do 3D+3 (with auto 6) and an assault rifle would also do 3D+3 even though its auto rating is 4, IE the ACR does the same damage as the assault rifle even though more bullets hit the target. The gauss rifle would do 4D+4 with auto 4. This system seems to make rate of fire irrelevant, what matters is high damage die. It seems this new way is a an attempt to reduce the lethality of burst fire as weapons with the same damage die even with wildly different auto ratings would do the same damage (IE a character lugging a mini gun with damage of 3D and an auto rating of 12 would do the same damage in a burst as his friend firing an assault rifle). I prefer the older system, and would suggest that maybe another way to do this would be to add half the auto rating to the damage instead (so an auto 4 weapon would be +2, whilst auto 6 +3) or that burst fire increases your chance to hit (add half the auto rating to the attack roll?). The auto fire system seem to work much the same as the first edition system, just with less die rolling so I am ok with that.
Armour and how damage effects your character is much the same as it always has been, very much a case of it isn't broke don’t fix it. Destructive weapons I like in principle, but there is an issue with them when it comes to scaling which I will mention when I get to the vehicle section write up.
Overall I like most of the changes or clarifications to this edition, besides my concerns expressed above (and why have I written so much on the combat section when I often have session after session with no combat?).

Noel
 
Old timer said:
...maybe another way to do this would be to add half the auto rating to the damage instead (so an auto 4 weapon would be +2, whilst auto 6 +3)...

Simple and scales with the volume (frequency?) of lead being thrown down range.


Old timer said:
...or that burst fire increases your chance to hit (add half the auto rating to the attack roll?)....

Also intuitive. However, a potential issue here will be that the increase chance to hit when stacked with other factors (hig dex, scope, etc.) might mean an auto success which might end up being a "killer app" for a player. Also, armour might just soak up a normal hit whereas it seems reasonable that multiple hits (as expressed by increased damage) would mean armour is broached and so damage dealt.
 
Old timer said:
...maybe another way to do this would be to add half the auto rating to the damage instead (so an auto 4 weapon would be +2, whilst auto 6 +3)...

If this were to be made the rule, it would make a lot of things based on half the auto rating. And maybe nothing left based on the unmodified auto rating.
If so, I would just reduce the auto rating of all weapons by half, and use that number for all these things that used half before.

Simplifies things. Makes the auto rating a direct indication of the mechanics.
Yes, even number / 2 is easy, but no math is easier.
 
So why does Full Auto work differently? Same concept (more bullets flying) but for Full Auto you have to make multiple to-hit rolls of which all might miss (i.e., no guaranteed extra damage as in Burst).

If the logic is; burst means more bullets of which almost certainly more than one will hit so just give some extra damage and don't worry about rolling for individual hits, then why doesn't that hold for Full Auto? Ergo, Burst gives 1/2 Auto rating as extra damage; Full Auto fives full Auto rating as extra damage. Perhaps that makes Full Auto too powerful? Say Full Auto has a -1 DM or a Bane die to simulate the somewhat more wild shooting experience.
 
Our groups have used the autofire systems in most versions of Traveller. It is important to keep combat moving. Our approach in recent adventures has been to halve the Auto ratings listed in MGT. This value is used as a DM to damage for burst fire (please note that we use a variant of Striker for damage). In the case of full autofire, this value denotes the number of attacks that may be made. We did not adopt the 'arrange dice in pairs' mechanism. We have found this to be effective. On a related note, I like the approach in the Beta rules that the Auto and Scope traits cannot be combined.
 
It's a nice idea, that takes number of shots in account, which is good. However, the damage boost is awfully low, and it doesn't take the base damage of the weapon in account (which neither the old rules did).

Burst fire with an ACR would be 3D + 3, yes? A single shot from a 3D weapon deals 10 damage in average when firing a single shot. Five more shots would only give an additional 3 damage, meaning the burst bullets do 5 % or their regular damage while part of a burst...

Six separate attacks means 6x10 damage in total, but for a burst it drops to 13?

Why would anyone ever waste 6 shots on a burst under those rules? Might as well remove burst-fire from the rules...

Also, I feel here should be some difference in damage based on the calibre/base damage of the attack. Getting hit by four 8D bullets should hurt more than four 2D...
 
It is because we are abstracting damage.

Imagine you yourself have a certain number of hits (based on your own STR, DEX and END).

You get hit (heaven forbid!) by a bullet. You are no longer operating at normal levels, reflected by a stat loss.

Now, given you have already been shot, if you get hit by another bullet, perhaps in roughly the same place, are you really twice as damaged? Or has it just made a bad situation somewhat worse?

The nature of damage is always going to be a bit odd in an abstract system, so what becomes important is its effect on the game. Are players going to avoid semi-auto fire because they can get more bang per bullet by firing them individually? I think not - I think they are going to take every bonus they can get their hands on!

In monitoring the total damage done, it is enough to make semi a bit more potent without collapsing the whole system, which is probably where it needs to be.

Not saying we have got it right, but that is the thinking!
 
Hey, I got you shot to provide an example in the first aid thread, so no worries just fire away :)

I understand and agree about the thought behind the mechanics, abstraction and simplification can be good things, I just feel the details need a bit tweaking.

As you say, getting four near-simultaneous hits to the same area should hurt less than four separate hits to different body parts, but 95% less? That's my issue. The burst mechanic in itself is something I'm very pleased with and I think it's a great way to solve multishots!
 
Indeed. There is always going to be a tension in the rules between being a simulation of reality and a system with which to create adventure stories. If it was a real simulation, most likely one hit from any caliber bullet would put a character completely out of play, but where's the fun in that? Rules need to reflect reality but allow bold adventurers do bold adventurer types of things and create compelling and fun stories.
 
I feel that the burst rule might be overthought. I have always thought of the burst rule as a quicker way to get a "double tap". I don't think of it as 4-5 bullets all flying in the same bullet hole. I think of it as 2 maybe 3.

Also, remember that by adding 1 point per dice, you are adding 16% more damage per dice, so it isn't 95% less.

3D weapon does 3-18 with an average of 10
3D+3 burst is 6-21 with an average of 13.

That is 30% more damage on average.
 
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
I feel that the burst rule might be overthought. I have always thought of the burst rule as a quicker way to get a "double tap". I don't think of it as 4-5 bullets all flying in the same bullet hole. I think of it as 2 maybe 3.

Also, remember that by adding 1 point per dice, you are adding 16% more damage per dice, so it isn't 95% less.

3D weapon does 3-18 with an average of 10
3D+3 burst is 6-21 with an average of 13.

That is 30% more damage on average.

130% damage, costing 400% ammo. Still feels like a poor deal to me.

EDIT: the 95% damage loss is for the additional bullets in the burst, excluding the first one. Of course the total damage is higher, but bullet 2, 3 and 4 does deal 5% or their "single bullet damage", yes?

Edit 2: upon re-reading my post, it came out harsher, abrupter and possibly more hostile than intended. Sorry about that.
 
Nah, I see what you mean. Now I understand where your 5% came from.

I am by no means an expert, but full auto puts a lot of lead into the air with little real effect.

I love watching the shows where the bad guys are spraying bullets everywhere but not hitting a thing, then the trained military type jumps out from behind cover and BAMM-BAMM, double-tap to the chest and the bad guy is down.

Maybe not realistic but I suspect closer to real life than every bullet gets a roll to hit.
 
Annatar Giftbringer said:
130% damage, costing 400% ammo. Still feels like a poor deal to me.

That's actually pretty generous. When we read about the use of assault rifles in wars or police shootings, the ratio of hits to bullets used is incredibly low.
 
Actually, it would likely be even more accurate if every additional bullet in a burst (or double tap) gives a boon die. As mentioned above, this practice in combat shooting is intended for making sure that the usual damage the weapon deals is maxed out and the target stays down (can you shoot once? Well, shoot twice).

Increasing the probability of maxed out damage while staying within the usual damage range could model that. Not sure if that's feasible though.
 
grauenwolf said:
Annatar Giftbringer said:
130% damage, costing 400% ammo. Still feels like a poor deal to me.

That's actually pretty generous. When we read about the use of assault rifles in wars or police shootings, the ratio of hits to bullets used is incredibly low.

This is an argument for to-hit being much more difficult, not additional burst-fire or auto-fire shots doing more damage. The metric to use here is what percentage of additional bullets in a burst or auto-fire stream hit after the first one does hit.

If you then want to keep the damage scale but make combat go faster by ensuring some damage is done with more consistency, you're going to want to reduce "per shot damage after armor penetration" to compensate for the more reliable "to-hit" roll... And you're going to have to scale armor differently too, and give characters some natural armor.

The further you diverge from realism, the wonkier the math gets; and I'm not inclined to think it improves much of anything, gameplay wise.
 
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