Possible new Hyborian age campaign.....What system to use...

[Demetrio]

Well a GM can either guide 'unsavvy' players towards a better build or encourage the more munchkin inclined to munch a bit less.

I agree d20 feat picks are unbalanced and certain builds are way better choices than others. It's a flaw of the system but one that is, I think, workable around.

Conan takes at least 6, and probably more, wounds in The Phoenix and the Sword, two of which are serious wounds. That's one reason I think Conan d20 works quite well, I can see that fight (including a dagger To the Hilt) playing out under the rules. And for me that's a sign the system is working (albeit imperfectly but then no system is perfect).

That's not an isolated instance either. In The Slithering Shadow he takes a head wound, is stunned by an impact against a wall, and then takes multiple hits from the Slithering Shadow itself causing many deep gashes as well as inflicting crush injuries. d20 hit point pools handle this kind of thing well I find.

D20 is designed, munchkin or die

No, not really. There's no need to munchkin unless the GM is optimising adventures for munchkins. With a little intelligent cooperation between players and GM munching can be reduced to polite nibbling I find.

Now d20 is often played 'Munchkin or Die', I agree. But that's a slightly different issue and I don't think any system is immune from the dread Munch. With Conan d20, I think it's possible to generate various viable characters appropriate to the setting without being a rules lawyer (it helps to be a rules lawyer to avoid inadvertent munchkining though).

And, as you do with location tables, it is possible to avoid or overcome aspects of a system that give undesireable results. Nerfing Power Attack for example.

I agree some Feats simply scream 'take me!' for certain builds. I have a lowish strength Scholar/Soldier/Thief. Driven to Win is a 'no brainer' as is 'Analyst'. Yet though those two two feats and some Fencing make him pretty formidable, and he'd be a far less effective fighter without them, picking them means I don't have room for Fleet Footed (unless I didn't pick Improved Unarmed Strike but then I wouldn't have IUS...).

But just because things like Skill Focus, Stealthy and Negotiator tend to be 'bad picks' for almost any build once one reaches mid-ish level doesn't, to me, mean the entire system is unworkable (I'd kind of like to have those +2/+2 feats 'grow' in their benefits as a character improves in skill. As it stands, they're good at low levels but become increasingly pointless. Easily house-ruled though...)

 

[bradius]

I don't like D20. For all the problems other posters have listed. That being said, I've been GMing Conan with the Mongoose D20 rules for 4 years now. It does work and it has been enjoyable.

I don't have the time to tweak another system to make it Hyborian appropriate. I don't use published scenarios, so all my RPG prep time goes into getting the scenarios done.

One of my players also dislikes D20. However, the other four are just fine with it.

If I had enough time, I'd probably try to find a better system. But, D20, while full of faults, is good enough.

 

[Style]

I don't have the time to tweak another system to make it Hyborian appropriate. I don't use published scenarios, so all my RPG prep time goes into getting the scenarios done.

Just wanted to chime in and say that if low prep time is your concern, Conan d20 likely isn't the best system. With Savage Worlds, you don't need to do stat blocks ahead of time. You can easily make up great npc villains and new monsters on the fly. This means that 99% of my prep time is spent thinking about cool plot twists, interesting character concepts for villains, and nasty traps.

When I was running D20 games, I spent easily half of my prep time on stat blocks.

 

[Hervé]

I agree on this. Actually it's even the major flaw of the system. After all these years, I could get used to the d20 system, but NPC creation is still such a torture for me... As it has been mentioned before, D&D is designed as a Player vs. Monster game, with "ready to use" critters. On the other hand, Conan pits man against man, and NPCs follow the same rules as PCs.

It's just making me depressive when I have to design NPCs like a Nomad 2/Thief3/Scholar5.

 

[Enlightened]

I agree on this. Actually it's even the major flaw of the system. After all these years, I could get used to the d20 system, but NPC creation is still such a torture for me... As it has been mentioned before, D&D is designed as a Player vs. Monster game, with "ready to use" critters. On the other hand, Conan pits man against man, and NPCs follow the same rules as PCs.

It's just making me depressive when I have to design NPCs like a Nomad 2/Thief3/Scholar5.

I've run my share of D20 before and I have never actually made NPCs before the game.

At most I will write out a few stats like, AC 18 HP 35 Attack +6 Dam 1d8+3, but I don't base it on any particular class or level. I just go with my gut on where I want the stats to be. And if I need more than that during play, I just make it up on the fly. "Oh, this guy's going to be jumping from one roof to the other to get away from the heroes. Hmmm, I'll say he has Jump +4 and call it good."

I know the party's stats so I have a pretty good sense of what would be easy, moderate and hard for them to defeat. I never felt the need to go by the book.

It has always worked fine that way.

 

[Hervé]

Of course, it is always possible to build a NPC from scratch, putting semi random numbers. While this method may work for a low lvl fighter, it becomes soon hard to handle with higher lvl multiclassed NPCs.

And then, what's the point in having a game system that is so detailed for PCs if NPCs aren't using the same rules? The point in rules is that everyone in the game should use them. If players and NPC aren't using the same rules, then the rules are worth nothing.
It's a bit like pitting a Magic deck vs. a Poker deck...

 

[csperkins1970]

Even though I enjoy the Conan d20 RPG, I always thought that Iron Heroes was a better bit for a swords & sorcery-style game.

I'm no Mike Mearls fanboy (thanks, in large part, to my dislike of 4th edition) but I really dig the Iron Heroes combat system, especially how skill checks can factor into combat.

 

[KJohnston]

As a Christmas gift for myself I am purchasing Driftwood's "The Riddle of Steel" RPG. Hopefully it will alleviate some of the d20 burnout problems I face as well as be fun for my players. In January hopefully I can maybe give some coherent, well rounded thought on how the system works for Conan.

 

[Da Boss]

I agree on this. Actually it's even the major flaw of the system. After all these years, I could get used to the d20 system, but NPC creation is still such a torture for me... As it has been mentioned before, D&D is designed as a Player vs. Monster game, with "ready to use" critters. On the other hand, Conan pits man against man, and NPCs follow the same rules as PCs.

It's just making me depressive when I have to design NPCs like a Nomad 2/Thief3/Scholar5.

I've run my share of D20 before and I have never actually made NPCs before the game.

At most I will write out a few stats like, AC 18 HP 35 Attack +6 Dam 1d8+3, but I don't base it on any particular class or level. I just go with my gut on where I want the stats to be. And if I need more than that during play, I just make it up on the fly. "Oh, this guy's going to be jumping from one roof to the other to get away from the heroes. Hmmm, I'll say he has Jump +4 and call it good."

I know the party's stats so I have a pretty good sense of what would be easy, moderate and hard for them to defeat. I never felt the need to go by the book.

It has always worked fine that way.

8) could not agree more..........

exactly what I do in all systems..........including my version of BRP/Stormbringer/Elric. Quite often NPCs only take one good hit and they go down - unless its dramatically better for them not to........

I dislike Savage Worlds as much as normal D20............

 

[Demetrio]

Why should npcs follow the same character generation rules as PCs?

I for one think it odd if players are meant to be the heroes that they do not have a substantial edge over most npcs. Of course in some games the pcs must be wholly ordinary but sword and sorcery calls for a little more dash in my view.

Important npcs are worth statting out in some depth but why the necessity to have them with exactly the 'right' number of skill points? Or stats? None that I can see. In any system.

If they used diffferent combat rules or different rules for social interactions then there would be a problem. But character generation rules are surely meant to give players a level playing field with other players and to give GMs a rough guide as to suitable power levels for npcs.

Does anyone seriously stat out every npc fully? Why on earth would one need to?

 

[Da Boss]

I agree but I know people who do - partly due thats how their mind works and they can't not do it..........

too much hard work for too little IMHO I find who they are and what they are doing / want / will do to get it, a sketch of their abilities enough.......

 

[Demetrio]

Aye.

In fact for all its faults, d20 in a low magic setting seems to me straightforward as far as creating non-sorcerous npcs given once one knows the class levels, working out BaB etc is easy. Attributes are straightforward to select because one's vision of the npc pretty much determines them. Skill points need a little arithmetic (but not much) and are then easily divided between necessary skills (and gosh, one can 'cheat' a bit if necessary to give an npc a suitable 'twist', like having a soldier with more Tumble than he's 'allowed'). And then feats are easy unless one is trying to create an npc who whose specific purpose is to neuter a specific PC when feats might need some thought. But that, to my mind, is an abuse of GM knowledge/power. NPCs might well be tough but they should not be solely created to exploit PC weakness.

 

[Arcadayn]

The whole feat thing is one of the main reasons I completely dislike D20. It's just a bloated and illogical system to deliniate between classes. Class restrictions are what drove me away from AD&D back in the '80s!

 

[Demetrio]

Feats are bloated, no doubt. And some are objectively much better than others too, which doesn't help.

But Feats do have the advantage of allowing characters to develop down certain paths which give them specific twists. And it is interesting that many systems now have feats (often called traits or similar) as a standard feature. To my mind the problem with d20 feats is not that they exist, because they do allow characters to have different 'flavours' but that they are bloated and imbalanced meaning a GM must be aware of the 'good ones' (and 'good' combinations) to avoid the dread Munchkin.

I'm not sure many feats are class specific in Conan mind you. Some are better for some classes than others of course. But multi-classing is so easy (and almost de rigeur for Hyborians I feel - though not so much for other races) that the feats help make each character unique. They could be better in that regard were they more balanced. But I've never seen a game with even remotely balanced feats. In all systems, some feats are just better than others.

What I like about the Conan feats is that many of them are modelled on Howard's descriptions, which is nice.

And, on a slightly diffenent note, while there are balance issues between Finesse and Brute Force fighters in Conan, the d20 system does allow the distinction to be made in a very meaningful way. Which many other systems do not. I've no idea whether 4th ed BRP allows such an obvious distinction for instance. Runequest did not when I played it in its Chaosium and AH editions because armour could only be bypassed by called shots or critical hits which were more to do with attack percentage than with actual style being Str or Dex based.

 

[Gavinwulf]

I have a couple of things I've tried Hyborian Age campaigns with, outside of Savage Worlds.

As silly as it might seem I used O.V.A. (open versatile anime) roleplaying game. I know, I know, it's for anime games. But the system is simple and rocks so I tried it as kind of an experiment. To my surprise it worked fantastically well for a Conanesque game! Here's the website where I think you can read about the 'Richochet System' rules: http://www.wiseturtle.com

The second system I'd recommend is Barbarians of Lemuria! A new edition has just been released, it's about a $10 download and it is awesome. It was actually based off of Lin Carter's Thongor books (a total copy of Conan). It is a very simple 2d6 roll-high mechanic, 9 is always the target number. Each pc/npc has four attributes that are 0-average, four combat skills that are 0-average, and each character can start with four careers. Attribute mods are always added to the roll, combat mods added when in combat, and the Career mods are added when not in combat. The careers are cool to have instead of scores of different skills. Instead if you pick Barbarian 3, you can do everything a barbarian can do pretty damn good. In some circumstances in combat, you can add both your combat skill and your career together with your attribute + roll. This represents a Barbarians Rage or an Assassin's 'sneak attack'.

Anyway, both systems use hit point pools which I generally dislike, but in these systems- the way they use them, I find them acceptable.

 

[kintire]

Does anyone seriously stat out every npc fully? Why on earth would one need to?

In order to be pointlessly obnoxious about d20 of course!

As a Christmas gift for myself I am purchasing Driftwood's "The Riddle of Steel" RPG. Hopefully it will alleviate some of the d20 burnout problems I face as well as be fun for my players. In January hopefully I can maybe give some coherent, well rounded thought on how the system works for Conan.

Worse than RQ, and for the same reasons (but more so). Riddle of Steel is an excellent system for really realisitc combat: ie Not Like Conan!

 

[seanbickford]

I really like this thread because, as my PCs are advancing, the limitations of the d20 system are starting to get really frustrating. So frustrating, in fact, that I am considering switching systems mid-adventure. I've heard a lot of suggestions for alternatives, but which systems are considered the top choices? Savage Worlds? RuneQuest? I haven't played anything (extensively) besides WFRP, CoC 5th, D&D, and d20, and I can't buy all these books to find out which one is best.

I'll tell you what I want:

• Simplfied skills.

• Feats/skills that progress gradually. Anybody can get any skill, but there will be a lot of pre-reqs for fancy ones.

• A combat system that makes evenly leveled opponents be scared no matter how much they tweak their character.

• Combat should allow PCs that are 4+ (or so) levels more than a large group of foes to be able to go all Conan on them.

• Hit points are stupid. I like the idea of luck/hero points found in other systems.

• Much, much, faster combat.

• Revised magic.

• Better balancing of skills/feats/characters.

You know, the reason I chose to play Conan RPG was because it got so much RIGHT. Codes of honor instead of alignment, combat manuevers, dark magic, neat character abilities, and a (albeit misguided) respect for realism in combat. Why can't fourth edition fix these retarded d20 mechanics? Just take the best from the systems already out there and add what Mongoose has created for Conan and there you go. There doesn't seem to be much argument about the goals of a new system on this board, so what's the hold up?

(Also, get a nice map, new art, bring back color, and charge $50 again. Plus, consolidate the source books, make it look awesome and charge $50 again.)

Now.

 

[Gavinwulf]

Hey Sean,
You just might want to give Savage Worlds a try. Using the Savage Worlds of Solomon Kane is perfect for Conan because of the magic rules and even the 'righteous rage' rules might be adaptable too.

One of the best things about Savage Worlds is there is no Hit Points! That's one of my favorite things anyway. Anyway, SW seems to fit your criteria.

 

[Demetrio]

If I had to run or play Conan under a different system, I'd plump for Savage Worlds.

It's quite slick, skills are pretty broad brush - except Knowledge, which curiously is very specific and thus Knowledgeable characters will be very narrow in focus, there are only two weapon skills, feats are somewhat limited in number and power and the game's very cheap (so if you don't like it, it can at least be plundered for ideas).

I don't like SW much, I confess, though I can't put my finger on why. It is simple and slick and has some good ideas. I should like it. It just doesn't quite hit the spot for me though, for any setting. Cortex rules (by MWP) are based on a similar system but allow a greater range of character abilities and though the feats are almost identical, they have a broader range of power. More expensive though and not as well rounded a rulebook. Worth considering if you find SW too limiting in Attribute ranges but the combat system especially would need massive tweaking to make Conan work. At least in SW it would kind of work 'out the box'.

 

[seanbickford]

I just read an introduction to Savage Worlds... pretty awesome. I've also found a Conan setting for it and saw that there is an official Conan Savage Worlds book coming out in January.

I feel like I'm cheating on Mongoose, though... Still reading SW...