Possible new Hyborian age campaign.....What system to use...

[Enlightened]

I've been feeling the Conan juices flowing in me lately and I've started thinking about starting up another Hyborian age campaign.

I have run it before two times. One time I used the Spirit of the Century rules (FATE3.0) and the second campaign was in Savage Worlds.

That was all before I started getting the Mongoose Conan books. Now that I have them (and am not yet fully sold on the system), I'm wondering what system to use for the campaign (should it get off the ground).

This time around, the options I've been considering are GURPS, Savage Worlds, Conan D20, and Hackmaster (modified of course).

In your opinion, what system does Conan best (or worst) and why?

I would just run the Conan D20 straight but, to tell the truth, I haven't heard good things about it (but then, I haven't personally tried it yet either).

 

[Hervé]

I've also been looking for the perfect Hyborian system for many long years and I agree this is certainly not the d20 system, which is to my mind the worst system I've tried so far for Conan gaming...

I'm currently using a revamped version of the Chaosium BRP, mostly based on the Elric Rules combined with options from Warhammer. The main advantages are simplicity, fluidity and flexibility, three qualities D20 is severely lacking for me.

The last version of the Basic Role Playing by Chaosium compiles the rules of most BRP games, adding some new options. The book really allows to customize the rules to your liking.

You'll hear great praises about Conan D20 rules around here, but be aware that most of them will come from players that were playing with D20 BEFORE playing Conan.

 

[thulsa]

I've been feeling the Conan juices flowing in me lately and I've started thinking about starting up another Hyborea campaign.

I just have to mention that the correct term is either "Hyborian" (the name of the time period, ie "Hyborian Age"), or Hyperborea / Hyperborean (the country that borders Asgard).

Robert E. Howard never calls the world/continent "Hyboria" (always "The HyboriaN AGE"), although other authors may have used this term.

There a good essay about this at http://www.thecimmerian.com/?p=1088

Now, back to your question...

This time around, the options I've been considering are GURPS, Savage Worlds, Conan D20, and Hackmaster (modified of course).

In your opinion, what system does Conan best (or worst) and why?

I used GURPS with a homebrew Hyborian Age campaign ten years ago or so, and I didn't like it. I felt that GURPS as a system is too dry and technical, and the characters and monsters did not feel heroic enough.

I felt that AD&D (2nd Edition at the time) would be a better fit, plus that was a system we were more familiar with, so I started planning a campaign using modified 2nd Edition rules.

Then D&D 3rd Edition (and the d20 System) came out. Although in some ways more rules-heavy than 2nd Edition, it streamlined the system, and I liked it. So I converted all my campaign notes to Third Edition (and that's what became my Hyborian Age website).

A few years later, Mongoose came out with the Conan RPG based on the d20 system. This introduced a lot of cool and genre-appropriate stuff to the core d20 rules (lower massive damage threshold, armor as damage reduction, characters who are not as dependent on their equipment, etc.).

So I cast my vote for the Conan (d20) RPG, at least if you like to use battlemats and miniatures (which I do). My biggest gripes with the system at the moment is that the magic system as written is overly complex and unbalanced* (mix of very weak and very powerful spells), and that some of the core classes (borderers and temptresses) don't see much use as player characters.

* By the way, my attempt to balance some of the spells can be found here, under the description of the Savant alternative core class:

http://hyboria.xoth.net/classes/index.htm

- thulsa

 

[Enlightened]

I just have to mention that the correct term is either "Hyborian" (the name of the time period, ie "Hyborian Age"), or Hyperborea / Hyperborean (the country that borders Asgard).

Robert E. Howard never calls the world/continent "Hyboria" (always "The HyboriaN AGE"), although other authors may have used this term.

There a good essay about this at http://www.thecimmerian.com/?p=1088

Interesting.

I had no idea.

I have changed the title of the thread.

 

[Clovenhoof]

I use Conan D20 and am happy with it, but I have to confirm Hervé's prediction: I played D20/D&D before. However, I also played a lot of totally different systems (in their appropriate settings) and still Conan is one of my favourites.

Actually, before I heard of Conan D20, I tried to write a conversion for the D&D 3rd ed rules, which however was always half-baked. Imagine my joy when I first saw the Conan rulebook in my LGS. I flipped through it and immediately liked what I saw. So that kinda stuck. =)

(Never played BRP, but did try out RuneQuest which is supposed to be similar, and didn't like it at all.)

Edit: I just read you played it with Savage Worlds before; I hear that's a good fit, but never played it myself (for lack of group).

 

[VincentDarlage]

Conan d20 is the best version of d20 I have ever played, so that would be my first choice, but I also thik Savage Worlds would be an excellent fit as well, esp. given their Solomon Kane game.

I have had several players play both borderers and temptresses, so apparently everyone's milage may vary on which core classes get played the most, but then again my players tend to enjoy multi-classing (but I do have one player who always plays a borderer straight through).

Although a lot of d20 players like the battlemat and figures, I personally dsilike them, so I play it without those accessories.

 

[LucaCherstich]

You'll hear great praises about Conan D20 rules around here, but be aware that most of them will come from players that were playing with D20 BEFORE playing Conan.

So, should I label myself an "infected" player whose opinions are devious due to a "d20 corruption"?

 

[Demetrio]

I'm slightly unusual in that I played Runequest for some years before playing AD&D (as was). And Call of Cthulhu was my favourite game for a longish period in the late 80s/early 90s. I've also played MERP and various other systems. I rather dislike D&D in its various incarnations and have hitherto in my latter day return to rpging avoided d20 based games as one would avoid a rabid and leprous dog.

I've not played Savage Worlds but I have the rules book and the system seems quite simple, if not quite elegant.

All that said, every rules system has its quirks and oddities and none are, to me, either very 'realistic' or 'foolproof' in a mechanics sense. I thought original RQ worked very well in its Glorantha setting and I feel Conan, despite it using d20, actually does a superb job of giving a Hyborian 'feel'. I think one might get close to that with other systems but, just personally, I can't see the RQ system doing as good a job (and let me reiterate, I have a high regard for the system and many fond memories of battling the Lunar Empire). The d20 system of Feats and Levels does a decent job of allowing more powerful characters to be better at avoiding and dealing lethal damage and the specific tweaks (armour giving DR, massive damage etc) of Conan go a considerable way to removing the big flaws with D&D. Not all the flaws of course. But rereading Howard, I can visualise nearly all Conan's fights in Conan rpg terms but if I try to put them in RQ terms... not so much.

So I'd stick with the Conan rules were I you. But of course I'm not...

I think a game system based on works of fiction should aim to capture the spirit of the stories and the game mechanics should allow situations/combat to resolve in the way in which similar situations unfold in the stories. 'Realism' is out of place because we're dealing with a fictional world. Fluid game mechanics are certainly not out of place, and Conan d20 can be a bit clunky (what does that feat do? Wait! I have an AoO! Hang on, I'm fencing, I get to make more dice rolls!) but sometimes one must clunk a bit to capture the proper spirit/feel. Sadly.

 

[LucaCherstich]

WOW, Demetrio, I'm very impressed!
You are the first "Runequest-fan" in this forum to admit that, at least at some level, Conan Rpg (d20) works to capture Howardeseque situations!

 

[Demetrio]

Well I really like RQ, and I thought it a fantastic game. But it did have some pretty odd quirks. Not to a hideous degree, and the new Mongoose edition might be better in that regard than the dreadful AH version that killed the game stone dead for me, but frankly RQ as I remember it just can't cope with fights like one finds in Howard because even big statted impressive skill characters are relatively fragile, especially if faced by multiple foes. Conan gets round that through having 'unrealistic' amounts of hit points (but puts a nice spin on things with massive damage).

RQ is fluid in the sense that its mechanics are straightforward enough but it does require lots of dice rolling. Lots. And some book-keeping and table consulting. Which slows things down. And characters are fragile without magic (it was designed for a setting where magic was commonplace).

Conan is clunky in that there are masses and masses of feats and possible combat actions and there's lots of stuff that can slow combat resolution. But book-keeping is pretty straightforward and usually players and GMs remember the most important feats/manoeuvers after a few sessions - or their specific effects are easily noted and retained on the character sheet. I have my characters various attack options detailed on a separate sheet, with all mods applied. More initial work but speeds up play enormously I find.

 

[Style]

I'm a big Savage Worlds fan. Is it the best fit for Conan? I don't know, I just love the system.

I am interested in knowing what rules you played with for your earlier Conan SW game (races, magic, etc). PM me if you're interested in my SW Conan specific rules.

 

[Enlightened]

I'm a big Savage Worlds fan. Is it the best fit for Conan? I don't know, I just love the system.

I am interested in knowing what rules you played with for your earlier Conan SW game (races, magic, etc). PM me if you're interested in my SW Conan specific rules.

There's a Savage Worlds: Conan conversion floating around called the Savage Sword of Conan, and I just used that.

And the group knew what would and wouldn't fit Conan, so they just made characters that fit volitionally. I didn't really make up any special rules.

I did, however, allow players to have "Aspects" from Spirit of the Century if they wanted them. And if they had them then they could have Spirit of the Century style Fate Points with which to buy rerolls and get bonuses, etc. However, the players didn't want to use them so much, even though it's an awesome idea

But I would be interested in seeing what you have.

 

[Arcadayn]

I ran a Hyborian campaign with Rolemaster for several years. It worked out really well. The large number of skills in Rolemaster gave players a lot of different areas to focus on without having "magic" as an option. I did a heavy modification of the magic system using the Mongoose rules as my guide (I actually ported over quite a few of the Mongoose rules as I also feel that for D20, the Atlantean Conan really captured Howard's tone). It actually worked out quite smoothly.

I have also recently picked up Chaosium's latest BRP rules and am extremely impressed. I will be running my next Hyborian campaign using that system! The modularity of the system via optional rules from every iteration of BRP really allows you to tailor it to your own taste.

 

[Enlightened]

Well, I've given the Conan D20 rules a good read now, and I'm thinking I might give it a try as is.

Just to see how it feels in play and to be able to say that I gave it a good honest shot should I later choose to move to a different system.

 

[kintire]

WOW, Demetrio, I'm very impressed!
You are the first "Runequest-fan" in this forum to admit that, at least at some level, Conan Rpg (d20) works to capture Howardeseque situations!

He's not. I've been enjoying Runequest since 1991.

But I don't think it will work for Conan. Its a system that models the fact that even skilled people are very quickly overwhelmed by numbers too well!

 

[Hervé]

Just to see how it feels in play and to be able to say that I gave it a good honest shot should I later choose to move to a different system.

That's a good way to start. I ran the game with OGL for over two years , playing twice a month before deciding the system didn't suit our way of playing the game. I might be criticizing D20, but at least I gave the system a chance before judging it was pure munchkin crap.

 

[Arcadayn]

But I don't think it will work for Conan. Its a system that models the fact that even skilled people are very quickly overwhelmed by numbers too well!

How does that make it not work for Conan?

 

[Demetrio]

Well Conan is not easily overwhelmed by numbers is the simple answer...

But that's a bit trite because not all characters are like Conan. It is part of it though. In a low magic RQ setting it is very hard for very good (ie high level equivalent) characters to deal with three or more attackers but it is nfairly comonplace in Howard for Conan to do so.

But there's also the issue of hit points and hit locations. In RQ if you're hit it's likely to be for somewhere around d8+1+d4 damage (by a typical soldier). So a range of 3-13 points. If you're very big and strong you might have between 5 and 9 hp per location. You won't stand more than two or three blows at most before your hit points are overcome. Yet Conan and the likes of Amalric, Balthus etc often withstand considerable numbers of hits and/or numbers of enemies. d20 style inflated hit points reflect that 'reality' better. Especially as massive damage still allows one hit kills (and low level characters will still be taken down anyway).

RQ tends to encourage defensive character builds, favouring as much armour as possible and using shields. That's not terribly Conanesque as far as I'm concerned. I know Conan used armour when it was available and the Conan d20 game reflects that quite well I think. But in RQ a 'high level' hero in a loin cloth is pretty much toast after one or maybe two hits. Not so much in d20.

Also two 'high level' RQ characters duking it out in single combat will likely undergo multiple rounds of attack and parry followed by a decisive blow. d20 Conan characters will end single combats much faster (with less rolling) in most instances. And that's more true to Howard also I think.

There are other issues. Strength is very important for most characters in d20 but the strength bonuses are stepped reasonably. In RQ there's a big difference between 0 bonus and d4 bonus and a bigger difference between d6 and 2d6. To be fair these may have been addressed in the Mongoose version. If so, less of an issue.

The healing mechanic in Conan d20 is simple and fits well with the system (essentially allowing a lot of recovering between fights). RQ healing was basically dependent on magic for fast healing and because the system is 'more realistic' (in that way, it is not in all ways) a fudge to allow fast non magic healing would seem like a fudge rather than a reasonable mechanic I think.

Let me reiterate, I like RQ in its original setting and I think the BRP system was basically great for Call of Cthulhu. I don't think the BRP mechanics encourage Conanesque character building or Conanesque combat though.

Curiously the d20 Feats/Combat Manouevers do suit Conanesque character buids and play. And allow for a variety of styles. The ease of muticlassing allows far more subtelty in character builds than found in D&D.

It does require more thought to build a certain character type and that hampers character generation to an extent. RQ is easier in that respect. But to be honest it's easy to munchkin in almost any system if one wants to. Even RQ/BRP.

 

[Arcadayn]

Demetrio - Thank you for that great explanation! I have only played BRP a handful of times with Cthulhu over the past decade or so. I very much appreciate your knowledgable perspective.

I can't remember if you've stated this elsewhere, but have you used the new 4th edition BRP? It has many optional rules that allow for a more "Heroic" level game.

 

[Hervé]

Shortening BRP to RQ only is somewhat restrictive.

RQ has always been the clunkier of BRP games and also probably the most lethal (if you except Cthulhu where you generally die without having even a chance to fight).

You should really take a look at the last Basic Role Playing edition from Chaosium which compiles most of the rules variant of al BRP games. BRP is flexible enough to allow any kind of play, from high heroism to gritty realism. Everything is highly customizable while remaining fluid and rule light.

So, no it's not so hard for a powerful BRP character to deal with three foes, even without armor or magic. It would be in RQ, I agree, but not in every BRP game.

I agree on the hit point per location rule. That sucks completely and leads to a world of one armed and one legged heroes. I never use them in my games, even when I'm using Hit Locations for armor or critical hits...

On the contrary, I disagree when you say that D20 style inflated hit points reflect that 'reality' better. I juste hate Hp 'pools' which make combat so dull for me. Even Conan wouldn't survive to more than three sword blows. No one would. The trick in a real combat is not to get hit.

BRP combat is all about attacking, dodging and parrying, looking for an opening allowing a deadly thrust, when in d20 you just bash your motionless dummy foe until his Hps run out. Absolutely not 'realistic' and non Conanesque to me.

Next, about character build. I just hate these worlds that are completely anti roleplaying to my ears. That's just another typical d20 reasoning. Character building and combos are good for video games, but have nothing to do with RPGs, at least to the vision I have of the hobby. D20 is just a tabletop WoW to my eyes, but I may be too much old fashioned.

Armor can sure help you in BRP, as it does in Conan OGL, but parrying and dodging is far more vital, and you don't always need a shield to do this. I've run Hyborian campaigns using BRP for years before Mongoose version came out, and most of my players were unarmored or lightly armored.

I've run both BRP and D20 Conan campaigns and I can assure you that combat is NOT faster in d20, on the contrary. I agree there might more more dice rolling in BRP, especially because of active defenses, but there are far less damage rolls and combat isn't burdened by feat use, special maneuvers, AoO, five foot step and other lousy options.

As for munchkining, of course it is possible to do it in most RPGs. The main difference is D20 encourages you to go this way. If you didn't maximize your character, you'll be worth nothing in d20 system by lvl 6.
I can tell it, as we come out from a two years long Conan D20 campaign. I had up to seven players at th table (that's way too much!) with five 'regulars'.

Two of these players were 'D20 wise', while the others were more in the storytelling approach. These two chose their feats and build their characters carefully, while the others went for more 'roleplaying' feats.
By level 6, the party was totally unbalanced, the two 'munchkins' being far more poweful than the rest of the party.

That's a way D20 is designed, munchkin or die, you don't have the choice.
That's why, after giving it a long try, I decided to completely give up this system, which will remain for me one of the worst and stupidest systems I've ever tried in 30 years of gaming.

I've been Conan gaming with Ad&D 1st ed, BRP (with lots of variants), TSR Conan, FGU Swordbearer and maybe one or two others I forgot. Before saying d20 is well suited for Coan, some should try other systems first. I did.