Playtesting vorlons.

[Alexb83]

Isn't that all supposition? Why wouldn't the ancients like fighters? I would say you argue for them rather than against. When you consider that a typical Vorlon 'diplomatic transport' is comparable to most of the lesser races warships, where do you think an ancient fighter would scale in offensive power?

Also as you point out, they aren't crewed and are therefore probably more desirable than deploying any of your big ships, where you put actual Vorlons at risk (even if it is small risk).

Also worth pointing out that the transports are capable of being flown remotely/telepathically by the vorlons, and acting intelligently of their own volition.

 

[katadder]

nope thats just one of the things mentioned in wars of the ancients.

 

[Da Boss]

I would also contend it depends who you are fighting - against other Ancients - maybe not so much use -- but against younger races - who both the Shadows and Vorlons fight they are useful.

And even then as stated the fighters seem to sting the Shadow Ship quite a bit.

The Shadows don't pilot any of their vessels in modern times and who says the Vorlons do very much either?

Ok so in B5 wars the Carrier has 4 flights - how does that compare with other carriers? Also what is a B5 Wars Vorlon fighter like compared to a ACTA fighter?

Both races use fighters in the show in most of the "battles" they fight so it seems that either WOA is wrong or more likely the Older Races use them more in later years when they are more effective?

 

[Ripple]

I guess I think we need to go back and do some earlier work.

Canon goes in order for me.

Show, actual evidence not implied stuff.

Author statements.

B5Wars fleets as the author signed off on them.

Mongoose fluff, as the author did walk away from the companies fiction, pulling his name off the material. Not sure whether he objected to the content or the presentation, but that did put it low on the totem for me. And the stats and fluff have often directly contradicted themselves. The 'fast' raid level G'Quan that was actually slower.

RPG based stuff, as it also doesn't agree with the fleet game (triple combat lasers for the Abbai?)

Given we have to go off the reservation anyway, I'd like to start at the top of that list and find out what threads weave all the way down.

Ripple

 

[Grunvald]

A "Single" 1AD Beam from a Vorlon fighters is very unlicky to kill a capital ships, a squadron might do some damage though (Squadron being more than one!)

However, it can cause a critical.

Sigh! 1AD crit hit from a Vorlon fighter is unlikly to kill a big ship, due to the fact it "single" damage!
If the ship has taken lots of damage to begin with then there might be a chance but any other time......

Four flights of fighters is effectively a 4AD precise beam. They can ignore anti-fighter by sitting out of range, have a reasonable chance of dodging any other fire from a capital ship, and have their own anti-fighter to take a shot at enemy fighter which comes near. And if they do get into a dogfight and lose, or manage to get killed by a capital ship, the carrier has a chance to respawn them.

Yep 4 flights might do that, but how many times have your AAF failed to kill any fighters.... Too many to count!
If they get into a dogfight, which happens quite a lot, with a Dog of +0 they tend to die pretty quick (lets not get into a descusion of why they cost double RR pts in campaigns for no reason or shall we...).
And since when does a "Carrier" respawn fighters? we talking basic carriers not "Fleet" carriers here!

Shadows can already carry fighters!

Which are nowhere near as scary as Vorlon fighters.

OK they nowhere near as scary...BUT with their shields now working in Dogfight (not sure if they work against AF) they a lot more of a pain to try and kill when compared to a Vorlon fighter, which whe in dog can nolonger use AAF where as a Shadow can still use shields!

You tell me who going to last longer!

So give them a carrier if you think they need one, most people dont think it is needed in the shadow fleet list, this was probabley due to the fact that the shields on a fighter were all but pointless till the new Play Test rules!

I don't think anyone needs carriers, least of all Shadows or Vorlons - they're already powerful fleets, balanced by some weaknesses. Apart from poor quality fighters, the Shadows' weakness is their vulnerability to pinning. The Vorlons don't have that weakness. So fine, let their capital ships carry fighters; give them their fleet carrier to carry and respawn even more fighters; and then watch the Vorlon fleet become a nice set of paperweights because nobody will want to play against them.

OK so now no one needs carriers...so how are all your fighter fleets going to get into battle, or travel around apart from on BIG ships?

Vorlons weakness is if they cant get shadows in front of them they Stuffed cause they cant turn as fast!

And have you attempted to "respwan" fighters? It not that easy needing 5+ or usually a 6!

Again we were talking carriers not "Fleet" carriers!

Paperweights that no one will play against..... you mean like the Gaim with their E-mines were? I doubt it, what we are after is a bit more diversity than the "basic" ships they get!

And i hope i'm missreading what you are saying at the end about giving everyone Huge Hangers to make the game balanced!

I don't want to give everyone huge hangars, or even carriers. Some people seem to feel that every fleet should have similar capabilities, and by that logic, every fleet should have a ship with Huge Hangars. Alternatively, let different fleets have their own strengths and weaknesses, and learn to play with the strengths and weaknesses of the fleet you have chosen.

I agree that not all fleets should be the same, there has to be diversity between them, as you say their own strengths and weaknesses.

BUT the vorlons get AA (yes VERY nice), Beam weapons (again VERY nice when they hit), and..........................................?

No real SA compared to shadows (Superb Manoeuvrability, Hyperspace Mastery).

Nothing special at all, just very BASIC ships!

Admitidly some of them are powerful but it would be so NICE to see some variety in there which should be in, instead we get bog standard pretty boring stuff!

Give us something, an Escort or a Carrier, ANYTHING please!!!!!

 

[inq101]

BUT the vorlons get AA (yes VERY nice), Beam weapons (again VERY nice when they hit), and..........................................?

No real SA compared to shadows (Superb Manoeuvrability, Hyperspace Mastery).

Nothing special at all, just very BASIC ships!

Admitidly some of them are powerful but it would be so NICE to see some variety in there which should be in, instead we get bog standard pretty boring stuff!

Give us something, an Escort or a Carrier, ANYTHING please!!!!!

I must be looking at a different fleet list to you. The Vorlons don't get as many special rules as the Shadows but they are able to use the special actions to great effect.

The Vorlons 'Basic' ships have a good speed, excellent maneuverability, tough (when AA, self-repair, AAF and Redundant Systems is taken into account) and good beams at all PL's. Add to that one of the best and most unique fighters out there. With a decent commander and a liberal use of SA the Vorlon fleet is difficult to beat.

And since when does a "Carrier" respawn fighters?

When someone talks about a carrier on the forums I always assume it is referring to a ship with the Fleet Carrier trait. Most 'carriers' that don't have this trait are not up to the job (the T'Rann is the main case in point, the Gaim are the exception). I'd assume most people do the same.

1 on 1 a Shadow fighter will beat it's Vorlon counterpart, but the Vorlons get 50% extra free. 3 fighters per patrol point instead of 2.

Shocked And how many flights of fighters would a Armageddon Carrier have Question

The Vorlon Carrier mentioned was a Heavy Cruiser variant (probably Armageddon, maybe War PL) with 4 flights of fighters, so 4.

Finally I'd like to say that the Dreadnought is NOT THAT BAD! It may not be great but it is still a tough SOB of a ship with the MOST POWERFUL SINGLE GUN IN THE SYSTEM. Its got 1 more AD than the Excalibur main gun with none of the drawbacks, its forward arc instead of boresite, it'll not be lost for long due to crits and its got a huge range. It might not be great (and I wish that they didn't call it the Dreadnought as that should be bigger) but it's not that bad. Plus it makes the Vorlons the only fleet with options at Armageddon level.

Tom

 

[Da Boss]

Of course if Triggys amendments to the space station rules go through - there are a quite a variety of War and Armegeddon level Shadow and Vorlon planet killing ships that can be created (including carriers) :wink:

 

[Ripple]

Those of us who fly Abbai, Vree and Drazi don't assume Fleet Carrier is part of any carrier discussion.

The concept was no inherent flights ment you paid a much higher cost than PL to field fighters, and to some degree you had to field them to protect yourself from races that had a lot of inherent fighters.

Part of the early discussion on Vorlons flights was their VP cost in one offs and RR cost in campaigns. Just a carrier trait and/or flights based on ships fixed these game balance issues. RR was also a big deal with the double cost Vorlons paid for the wings.

 

[AdrianH]

A "Single" 1AD Beam from a Vorlon fighters is very unlicky to kill a capital ships, a squadron might do some damage though (Squadron being more than one!)

However, it can cause a critical.

Sigh! 1AD crit hit from a Vorlon fighter is unlikly to kill a big ship, due to the fact it "single" damage!
If the ship has taken lots of damage to begin with then there might be a chance but any other time......

I did not say it would kill the capital ship. It can, however, knock out the engines or weapons. Given how many fighters you can buy, let alone the fact that you want to give the Vorlons some more for free, the fate of an enemy capital ship is likely to be disabled by fighters until one of the cruisers gets round to finishing it off with a big gun.

Four flights of fighters is effectively a 4AD precise beam. They can ignore anti-fighter by sitting out of range, have a reasonable chance of dodging any other fire from a capital ship, and have their own anti-fighter to take a shot at enemy fighter which comes near. And if they do get into a dogfight and lose, or manage to get killed by a capital ship, the carrier has a chance to respawn them.

Yep 4 flights might do that, but how many times have your AAF failed to kill any fighters.... Too many to count!

If the fighters have long enough range to sit out of AAF range, the answer to that would be "every time".

If they get into a dogfight, which happens quite a lot, with a Dog of +0 they tend to die pretty quick (lets not get into a descusion of why they cost double RR pts in campaigns for no reason or shall we...).

On the other hand, since they have AAF, they can reasonably expect to kill half the enemy fighters before the dogfight even starts. Or, in the case of Shadow fighters, knock out their shields and make it an even fight.

Shadows can already carry fighters!

Which are nowhere near as scary as Vorlon fighters.

OK they nowhere near as scary...BUT with their shields now working in Dogfight (not sure if they work against AF) they a lot more of a pain to try and kill when compared to a Vorlon fighter, which whe in dog can nolonger use AAF where as a Shadow can still use shields!

Not while in dogfight. I believe they're allowed to use AAF once just as they enter the dogfight.

Shields do work against AF, but not as well as sitting at range 3" and ignoring AF entirely. Which means Vorlon fighters which get through to an enemy capital ship will probably do more harm, and certainly live longer, than Shadow fighters going after the same capital ship.

OK so now no one needs carriers...so how are all your fighter fleets going to get into battle, or travel around apart from on BIG ships?

That is exactly how they get into battle in the show - carried by big ships such as the Omega. Or, in smaller numbers, by less big ships such as the Hyperion.

And it's how the Narn and Pak'Ma'Ra fighters have to get into battle anyway because they have no carriers either.

Vorlons weakness is if they cant get shadows in front of them they Stuffed cause they cant turn as fast!

Which is fine if there are a few pieces of conveniently placed scenery. Otherwise the Shadows need to walk into a 6D QD precise beam for at least one turn before they can nip round the back or side of the Vorlon ship. Assuming they survive that without getting pinned, the Vorlon Light Cruiser can turn up to 180 degrees on "All Stop and Pivot", meaning the Shadow gets another 6D QD precise in the face.

Paperweights that no one will play against..... you mean like the Gaim with their E-mines were?

Before the rebalance in P&P, yes. So, given that you propose to put the Vorlons into the same position, how do you propose to weaken them to bring them back into balance?

BUT the vorlons get AA (yes VERY nice), Beam weapons (again VERY nice when they hit), and..........................................?

No real SA compared to shadows (Superb Manoeuvrability, Hyperspace Mastery).

Nothing special at all, just very BASIC ships!

With the same self-repair and auto-repair of criticals as Shadows. And now the "Regenerate" SA. No, nothing special at all.

 

[Grunvald]

Finally I'd like to say that the Dreadnought is NOT THAT BAD!

There are enough of us to disagree with you there! Nuff Said!

(and I wish that they didn't call it the Dreadnought as that should be bigger) but it's not that bad. Plus it makes the Vorlons the only fleet with options at Armageddon level.

If they hadnt called it that, then i'd probabley be in agreement with you.

But they did so.......

However, it can cause a critical.

Sigh! 1AD crit hit from a Vorlon fighter is unlikly to kill a big ship, due to the fact it "single" damage!
If the ship has taken lots of damage to begin with then there might be a chance but any other time......

I did not say it would kill the capital ship. It can, however, knock out the engines or weapons. Given how many fighters you can buy, let alone the fact that you want to give the Vorlons some more for free, the fate of an enemy capital ship is likely to be disabled by fighters until one of the cruisers gets round to finishing it off with a big gun.

You didnt say it was left alive either!!!

And where oh WHERE did i say i want to give vorlons mmore fighters for free? Answer NOWHERE!

The price of a fighter should be included in the P level of the ship!

And we have been talkig all along about NEW SHIPS!

Four flights of fighters is effectively a 4AD precise beam. They can ignore anti-fighter by sitting out of range, have a reasonable chance of dodging any other fire from a capital ship, and have their own anti-fighter to take a shot at enemy fighter which comes near. And if they do get into a dogfight and lose, or manage to get killed by a capital ship, the carrier has a chance to respawn them.

Yep 4 flights might do that, but how many times have your AAF failed to kill any fighters.... Too many to count!

If the fighters have long enough range to sit out of AAF range, the answer to that would be "every time".

MY FAULT for not stateing the Vorlon AAF when in dogfight!

If they get into a dogfight, which happens quite a lot, with a Dog of +0 they tend to die pretty quick (lets not get into a descusion of why they cost double RR pts in campaigns for no reason or shall we...).

On the other hand, since they have AAF, they can reasonably expect to kill half the enemy fighters before the dogfight even starts. Or, in the case of Shadow fighters, knock out their shields and make it an even fight.

And when did "reasonably" come into any part of game play?
Having the AAF is real nice yeah i wont say anything against it, But as i said how many times have you rolled and failed to do anything.....

Shadows can already carry fighters!

Which are nowhere near as scary as Vorlon fighters.

OK they nowhere near as scary...BUT with their shields now working in Dogfight (not sure if they work against AF) they a lot more of a pain to try and kill when compared to a Vorlon fighter, which whe in dog can nolonger use AAF where as a Shadow can still use shields!

Not while in dogfight. I believe they're allowed to use AAF once just as they enter the dogfight.[/quote]

Isnt that what i just said?

Vorlon only get to use it once, shadows all the time!

Yep i did say that!

Shields do work against AF, but not as well as sitting at range 3" and ignoring AF entirely. Which means Vorlon fighters which get through to an enemy capital ship will probably do more harm, and certainly live longer, than Shadow fighters going after the same capital ship.

And when are you going to get the chance to sit back and shoot at shadow fighters from 3" away?

About 1 in a million games perhaps!

In practically all games except in the games where a person makes a movement error you will find that fighters will be in dogfight, except in certain situations!

OK so now no one needs carriers...so how are all your fighter fleets going to get into battle, or travel around apart from on BIG ships?

That is exactly how they get into battle in the show - carried by big ships such as the Omega. Or, in smaller numbers, by less big ships such as the Hyperion.

And it's how the Narn and Pak'Ma'Ra fighters have to get into battle anyway because they have no carriers either.

Another one for we dont see it in the show so it dont excist reason!

Vorlons weakness is if they cant get shadows in front of them they Stuffed cause they cant turn as fast!

Which is fine if there are a few pieces of conveniently placed scenery. Otherwise the Shadows need to walk into a 6D QD precise beam for at least one turn before they can nip round the back or side of the Vorlon ship. Assuming they survive that without getting pinned, the Vorlon Light Cruiser can turn up to 180 degrees on "All Stop and Pivot", meaning the Shadow gets another 6D QD precise in the face.[/quote]

Hyperspace Mastery, who needs scenery with that? straight in behind your enemy!

Unless we been using ASAP wrong thought you could only double you initial turn of 45ˆ not the whole lot!

Paperweights that no one will play against..... you mean like the Gaim with their E-mines were?

Before the rebalance in P&P, yes. So, given that you propose to put the Vorlons into the same position, how do you propose to weaken them to bring them back into balance?[/quote]

So what your saying is that by adding a carrier to the fleet list we are making the vorlons a broken list l;ike the Gaim where!

Now where did that nonsense come from?

BUT the vorlons get AA (yes VERY nice), Beam weapons (again VERY nice when they hit), and..........................................?

No real SA compared to shadows (Superb Manoeuvrability, Hyperspace Mastery).

Nothing special at all, just very BASIC ships!

With the same self-repair and auto-repair of criticals as Shadows. And now the "Regenerate" SA. No, nothing special at all.

Have you actually read the previous comments on the Regen SA and actually read them or tried them?

Read the previous post so i dont go repeating myself and other comments again!

 

[inq101]

I'm not going to quote huge chunks of posts that have already been quoted. I trust you guys to have the common sense to read the relevant stuff.

Not while in dogfight. I believe they're allowed to use AAF once just as they enter the dogfight.

Isnt that what i just said?

Vorlon only get to use it once, shadows all the time!

Yep i did say that!

and

And when are you going to get the chance to sit back and shoot at shadow fighters from 3" away?

About 1 in a million games perhaps!

In practically all games except in the games where a person makes a movement error you will find that fighters will be in dogfight, except in certain situations!

You know, Vorlons do sometimes face other fleets than Shadows. Against any other fighter the Vorlons AAF is extremely useful. The Vorlon fighter out-performs its Shadow counterpart against almost all opponents except Shadows. It's AAF and larger numbers are more likely to keep it alive against enemy fighters and its 3" range keeps it out of AF range. The shadow fighter seems to always get slaughtered by fighter screens or mown down by AF defenses.

The shields on Shadow fighters do beat AAF, but once more the Vorlons have MORE FIGHTERS. Even at high PL games where Shadow ships do carry a few flights the Vorlons will often have a numbers to outnumber the Shadows (especially as the only shadow fast deployment option counts as all your shooting).
The Vorlons seem to get initiative about 1 in 4 turns. Forcing the Shadow fighters into AF range is not a problem as they can't do anything when outside it. With a little planning you can force them to choose between attacking your fighters (thinning their numbers. Vorlons have the numbers so should manage several 2 on 1 fights) or attacking your fleet (and getting squished by AAF, as well as leaving your fighters free to attack their fleet).

As for shields being used all the time but AAF only working once in dogfights. Both fighters are Dogfight +0. How often do they survive more than 1 turn if they are forced to fight. At least the AF score means your normally taking one of them with you.

Which is fine if there are a few pieces of conveniently placed scenery. Otherwise the Shadows need to walk into a 6D QD precise beam for at least one turn before they can nip round the back or side of the Vorlon ship. Assuming they survive that without getting pinned, the Vorlon Light Cruiser can turn up to 180 degrees on "All Stop and Pivot", meaning the Shadow gets another 6D QD precise in the face.

Hyperspace Mastery, who needs scenery with that? straight in behind your enemy!

Unless we been using ASAP wrong thought you could only double you initial turn of 45ˆ not the whole lot!

Vorlons tend to circle the wagons when you do this, covering each of their ships with one or two others. There is also the Come About order that lets the Light Cruiser turn 135 degrees (with a CQ test). With F arc arcs that's enough. I've always plaid ASaP as you can make all your normal turns anyway.

Before the rebalance in P&P, yes. Wink So, given that you propose to put the Vorlons into the same position, how do you propose to weaken them to bring them back into balance?

So what your saying is that by adding a carrier to the fleet list we are making the vorlons a broken list l;ike the Gaim where!

Now where did that nonsense come from?

It sounds like he's saying that the carrier will fill one of very few weaknesses in the fleet giving them a large advantage over other fleets. A perfectly valid argument I'd agree with.

Have you actually read the previous comments on the Regen SA and actually read them or tried them?

The argument where several other posts said that they could see times where it would be useful to use that SA.

Once more, my opinion of the Dreadnought. It's hard to argue with that gun. It's doing an average of 36 damage per shot before you work out the 3 crits you'll normally score. That'll kill most Battle ships and cripple (through damage or crits) a War ship.[/quote]

 

[AdrianH]

And where oh WHERE did i say i want to give vorlons mmore fighters for free? Answer NOWHERE!

The price of a fighter should be included in the P level of the ship!

And we have been talkig all along about NEW SHIPS!

I may have misunderstood the part where you noted that ships can gain the ability to launch fighters by becoming "Maternal" in campaigns, therefore ships in one-off battles should have this ability too - I thought you were also arguing for regular cruisers to be given fighters, as it is they that will gain the "Maternal" ability.

On the other hand, since they have AAF, they can reasonably expect to kill half the enemy fighters before the dogfight even starts. Or, in the case of Shadow fighters, knock out their shields and make it an even fight.

And when did "reasonably" come into any part of game play?
Having the AAF is real nice yeah i wont say anything against it, But as i said how many times have you rolled and failed to do anything.....

I would hope that most gameplay is reasonable. Of course, if you intend to make the Vorlons unreasonable, giving them a carrier is a good way to start.

As for AAF, I have never rolled and failed to do anything for the simple reason that I play Shadows - AAF is something which other people have. I have lost fighters to AF, even with shields. If multiple AF doesn't kill one, it can at least knock down the shield so that a secondary weapon can finish the job.

Not while in dogfight. I believe they're allowed to use AAF once just as they enter the dogfight.

Isnt that what i just said?

Vorlon only get to use it once, shadows all the time!

Shadows aren't the only fleets you'll be fighting. At least, not unless Shadows get something to make them unbalanced as well, meaning the only fleets Vorlons and Shadows can play against is each other.

Against anyone else, one salvo of AAF means the enemy have fewer fighters going into the dogfight, after which you may win by superior numbers. Shadow fighters' shields doesn't compensate much for a +0 dogfight score, meaning it will take longer to finish the dogfight but they'll probably still lose.

Shields do work against AF, but not as well as sitting at range 3" and ignoring AF entirely. Which means Vorlon fighters which get through to an enemy capital ship will probably do more harm, and certainly live longer, than Shadow fighters going after the same capital ship.

And when are you going to get the chance to sit back and shoot at shadow fighters from 3" away?

You won't. However, now imagine you're up against someone else and your fighters are going after his capital ship. Again, Shadow fighters' shields offer limited protection against AF, but a 3" weapon range gives complete protection against AF.

And it's how the Narn and Pak'Ma'Ra fighters have to get into battle anyway because they have no carriers either.

Another one for we dont see it in the show so it dont excist reason!

Make up your mind - either that is a valid reason for excluding Narn, Pak'Ma'Ra and Vorlon carriers, or it isn't.

Which is fine if there are a few pieces of conveniently placed scenery. Otherwise the Shadows need to walk into a 6D QD precise beam for at least one turn before they can nip round the back or side of the Vorlon ship. Assuming they survive that without getting pinned, the Vorlon Light Cruiser can turn up to 180 degrees on "All Stop and Pivot", meaning the Shadow gets another 6D QD precise in the face.

Hyperspace Mastery, who needs scenery with that? straight in behind your enemy!

Unless we been using ASAP wrong thought you could only double you initial turn of 45ˆ not the whole lot!

Hyperspace mastery is only any use in scenarios which allow ships to start in hyperspace. Not all of them do.

I'd always assumed that ASAP gave the ship double its total usual turning ability.

So what your saying is that by adding a carrier to the fleet list we are making the vorlons a broken list l;ike the Gaim where!

Now where did that nonsense come from?

Start with the premise that the Vorlon fleet is currently balanced (otherwise there would have been more players complaining about it for the last couple of years). Add in a new type of ship which cancels out their weakness. The result is an unbalanced fleet.

Nothing special at all, just very BASIC ships!

With the same self-repair and auto-repair of criticals as Shadows. And now the "Regenerate" SA. No, nothing special at all.

Have you actually read the previous comments on the Regen SA and actually read them or tried them?

I have read, and answered, previous comments on Regen. Like some SA's for other races, it does require a CQ check. I'm still waiting for a chance to try playing against Vorlons using "Regenerate", but nevertheless, it is an SA available only to Vorlon ships. Add that to their self-repair and super-powerful beams, and Vorlon ships are definitely not "just very BASIC ships".

 

[Da Boss]

Personally I still think it would be nice to have a bit of variety to the Vorlon fleet as I also don't think that having an additonal option of a Carrier and / or Scout would overbalance them - you still have to choose to not include something else in order to field them. In the same ways as a couple more of the special actions would not - Ramming Speed being one. It is however important to ensure that any new ships are in character for the race.............

I remain to be convinced about the "Ancients don't use fighters argument" especially since given the biological nature of their ships - spawning fighters seems an logical extapolation?

Vorlons tend to circle the wagons when you do this, covering each of their ships with one or two others. There is also the Come About order that lets the Light Cruiser turn 135 degrees (with a CQ test). With F arc arcs that's enough. I've always plaid ASaP as you can make all your normal turns anyway.

Yeah that can work - however the last part is a bit different to how we have always understood and played the rule - in fact it came up at the last tourney and Triggy confirmed it was add 45 to one turn not both if you have two. (although obviously if your group is happy to play that way thats fine )

Good point about Hypersapce though - its often not available esp at tournaments to avoid both JPB and Shadow Mastery

 

[katadder]

135 degrees is only 45 degrees added to one turn DB.
one 90 and one 45 turn

 

[Da Boss]

Yeah I got that just the it was the bit about I was refering to:

With F arc arcs that's enough. I've always plaid ASaP as you can make all your normal turns anyway.

 

[katadder]

aah i get you, didnt realise as quoted the whole lot
yeah AS&P is just one turn plus 45 degrees otherwise too many ships would have too much agility.

 

[stryve]

The phrasing iof AS&P is:

You may turn the ship up to double its normal turn rate, in any direction.

I had understood 'rate' to be refering to the increments in which the ship turns. So a ship with 1/45 or 2/45 would double the /45 and turn up to 90, while a ship with 1/90 or 2/90 would turn up to 180.

 

[katadder]

yeah thats pretty much it. if you could double both turns on a 2/45 ship would be a bit much.

 

[Alexb83]

Is the PL trade-down issue still in place with the gap in the Vorlon list?

If so, isn't it the case that at any level above patrol, Vorlons can't take fighters to the table without massively losing out? This is WRT the idea that Vorlons have an advantage in fighters over Shadows (or any high PL carrier) in bigger games.

 

[Da Boss]

well they do have a Raid choice now so its not so bad

(Shadows still don't have a skirmish choice though)