Playtesting vorlons.

[Ripple]

um... no, a single squadron ding one up... not even a pin... it was the destroyer that destroyed it.

on screen evidence for size is always hard to judge, but vorlon fighters don't seem much bigger than anyone else, not sure where you get the patrol craft sized stat from as I don't recognize ISTR.

also no evidence that they can open their own jump points... especially given the comments in the show that the whitestar is one of the smallest ships to ever manage it... no the smallest ship fielded by a non-ancient.

regardless of whether they can or not, that doesn't mean you can't or wouldn't have a carrier. Star Furies can operate a jump gate and navigate hyper as well as most EA ships (gate to gate at least) and they still operate carriers rather than just have a jump capable ship fly alongside them.

(we see a flight of furies operate from B5 in the first season at least one jump gate away escorting a freighter... )

They did resolve the biggest balance issue by changing how vps are allocated so it's less necessary than it was, but the reasoning behind it should also have resulted in no planet killer, dreadnaught, mixed cruiser sizes, etc. Vorlons clearly makes ships to fill various roles, and limiting them to no scouts, carriers, escorts is hard to really justify.

Ripple

 

[AdrianH]

So are we now going to argue about what is seen in the show and what isnt!

If so delete over half the ships in the fleet book because we dont see them!

There's extrapolating from what's seen in the show to give fleets extra ship types, and then there's making up entire ship types which don't exist in the show.

Comparison is sometimes made between ACTA and Victory At Sea. Suppose we were making up fleet lists for VAS but all we had for source information was a few war films. We know Britain and America have fairly complete fleets, but all we've seen for Germany are Bismarck, Prinz Eugen and Graf Spee, plus U-boats; and we haven't seen the French at all. It's reasonable to expand the German fleet list and make up the French list to include battleships, heavy and light cruisers, destroyers and carriers. It's not reasonable to include ballistic missile submarines.

You have filled a gap for the vorlon with a raid ship, thanks this helps. But what real use is it apart from filling a P level?

That is exactly what it is for.

People have made their views clear on here many times over, it not just experessing an opinion, it is what is needed to make things more balanced!

Being the only race to buy fighters (not 100% sure of this) we get peanalised by having to give VP's away practically before the game has started, having a carrier or ships that can carry fighters balances out that problem.

And then there are the Drakh, probably the only race ever to show a dedicated carrier on screen, who don't get fighters at all. Presumably for balance you'll argue that they should get fighters as well?

And i've said it on several occasions and will again here :
Saying the vorlons dont have carriers and then giving them the ability "MATERNAL" in campaigns kicks that "Can't" right out the window!

There you go, then. Vorlon ships can carry fighters if they earn the right to do so. Normal Vorlon ships can't. The same applies to Shadow Scouts.

The major argument for no Vorlon carriers is that their fighters can form their own jump points to enter/leave hyperspace unsupported... but that's not represented in the game.

That's easily enough fixed - just say that they can form jump points and enter/exit hyperspace. If necessary, give the Advanced Jump Engine trait to Vorlon fighters.

ISTR the official fluff is that a vorlon 'fighter' is about 25m in length - they're the size of most other races' small patrol vessels, and on screen, a single 'squadron' of them (using the ACTA basing convention) was able to tear a Shadow vessel apart... but hey.

Yes, a runaway roll on a 1D beam will do that. The other reason why they're like other races' small capital ships is that they're the only fighters in the game to carry the anti-fighter trait. And if I get my way, they're getting jump engines.

Mind you, Drakh carriers can carry capital ships, so if the whole idea of giving the Vorlons carriers is to make them balanced, everyone else's carriers ought to be able to do so as well. Including the Shadows' carrier, which for balance's sake will presumably be introduced at the same time as the Vorlon one.

 

[katadder]

pak fighters also carry anti-fighter trait, but then they are like small capital ships as well.

 

[Grunvald]

So are we now going to argue about what is seen in the show and what isnt!

If so delete over half the ships in the fleet book because we dont see them!

There's extrapolating from what's seen in the show to give fleets extra ship types, and then there's making up entire ship types which don't exist in the show.

But if you are making up ships for "Extra Types" then you ARE making up ships that dont exsist. DOH!

You have filled a gap for the vorlon with a raid ship, thanks this helps. But what real use is it apart from filling a P level?

That is exactly what it is for.

Its a ship that has no specific roll what so ever!
Has damage speed turns and a gun and anything else that comes along as basic!
And apart from that the design of it is to fill a prioty level and nothing else!
In other words BOREING!

People have made their views clear on here many times over, it not just experessing an opinion, it is what is needed to make things more balanced!

Being the only race to buy fighters (not 100% sure of this) we get peanalised by having to give VP's away practically before the game has started, having a carrier or ships that can carry fighters balances out that problem.

And then there are the Drakh, probably the only race ever to show a dedicated carrier on screen, who don't get fighters at all. Presumably for balance you'll argue that they should get fighters as well?

From what i remember about Fluff they are surposed to use Raiders! so give them an option of using raiders craft!
But with every Drakh ship having at least GEG1 they pretty well protected against most fighters anyway!

But "On Screen" we see a big carrier possibly a mother ship or similar style ship, and as such has Huge Hangers (rule fluff?).

So want to create something here that doesnt exsist because we dont see it ?

And i've said it on several occasions and will again here :
Saying the vorlons dont have carriers and then giving them the ability "MATERNAL" in campaigns kicks that "Can't" right out the window!

There you go, then. Vorlon ships can carry fighters if they earn the right to do so. Normal Vorlon ships can't. The same applies to Shadow Scouts.

Earn the right? The example is given as campaign rules, so ships can gain it ok.

We are talking one off games not campaign games where you have to "Earn the right".

But if they can gain it now, why havent ships of the past got it and be brought with it, the ships are organic so they GROW, if the XP chart to gain these abilities is ment to represent this why dont we see any ships that can be brought straight from the list with at least a portion of these things in!

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

Grunvald: I'm with you dude! Glad to see you answered what was said, I was going to but then thought it wasn't my place to do so.

 

[Grunvald]

Grunvald: I'm with you dude! Glad to see you answered what was said, I was going to but then thought it wasn't my place to do so.

Go ahead an make more comments the more the merrier

We all know what the vorlons (and in some respects the shadows) need and it needs to be said and made perfectly clear!

So go on make yourself heard!

 

[Grunvald]

Kind of missed this last bit:

ISTR the official fluff is that a vorlon 'fighter' is about 25m in length - they're the size of most other races' small patrol vessels, and on screen, a single 'squadron' of them (using the ACTA basing convention) was able to tear a Shadow vessel apart... but hey.

Yes, a runaway roll on a 1D beam will do that. The other reason why they're like other races' small capital ships is that they're the only fighters in the game to carry the anti-fighter trait. And if I get my way, they're getting jump engines.

A "Single" 1AD Beam from a Vorlon fighters is very unlicky to kill a capital ships, a squadron might do some damage though (Squadron being more than one!)

And getting the jump engine......(surpressed laughter!)...... not going to happen!

White star is the smallest ship ever i beleive to be able to create a jump point so a fighter is right out of the galaxy in getting jump engines!

Mind you, Drakh carriers can carry capital ships, so if the whole idea of giving the Vorlons carriers is to make them balanced, everyone else's carriers ought to be able to do so as well. Including the Shadows' carrier, which for balance's sake will presumably be introduced at the same time as the Vorlon one.

Shadows can already carry fighters!

So give them a carrier if you think they need one, most people dont think it is needed in the shadow fleet list, this was probabley due to the fact that the shields on a fighter were all but pointless till the new Play Test rules!

And i hope i'm missreading what you are saying at the end about giving everyone Huge Hangers to make the game balanced!

 

[Foxmeister]

White star is the smallest ship ever i beleive to be able to create a jump point so a fighter is right out of the galaxy in getting jump engines!

Well, the Blue Star is little more than a large fighter and it has a advanced jump engine in ACTA, so it isn't a huge leap of faith to believe that a Vorlon fighter could have one.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Alexb83]

um... no, a single squadron ding one up... not even a pin... it was the destroyer that destroyed it.

on screen evidence for size is always hard to judge, but vorlon fighters don't seem much bigger than anyone else, not sure where you get the patrol craft sized stat from as I don't recognize ISTR.

Actually, you're out of sequence - the destroyer blows up a different Shadow ship, as does one of the Heavy Cruisers (and we don't even get to see the entire engagement on screen). See http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok4FJn5lpB4

The fighters engage a Shadow ship with no loss, clearly causing it damage. The 'pin' is a reverse engineered term from a game mechanic. They had it spinning around in agony not doing anything else - isn't that what the pin is supposed to represent?

We also see a destroyer ramming a shadow ship - are Vorlons even permitted the ramming special action? (I can't recall which ones they actually are permitted to make)

Then again, you also see a heavy cruiser absorb a beam impact in that scene - the potential for which is also ignored in the game mechanics.

The 25m long stat comes from the technical stats in the official (never released) B5 flight sim from Sierra. http://www.firstones.com/b5games/sim/sim_dockingbay.html

The whole 'the White star is the smallest ship that can open a jump point' idea is based entirely on supposition - the characters that discuss the point have no idea what the abilities of Vorlon/Shadow/any First One ships are - they are simply comparing the White Star to any Minbari/EA ships that they've ever seen before - and let's remember the fact that the White star can do what it does is based solely on the fact that it was built using Vorlon technology. Futhermore, clearly the Blue Star throws the statement out the window by being smaller and capable of jump point generation.

If the blue star could do it, then do you really think that the Vorlons, being millions of years more advanced, couldn't?

How else do their fighters get around? Because clearly they don't do it inside their larger ships.

 

[Da Boss]

Neither Shadows or Vorlons can presently ram IIRC (despite both doing it in the show!) but then neither can Narn fighters..........

Shadow fighters can phase into hyperspace and they are smaller than WS but may not be smaller than blue star - they are actually pretty big fighters

I guess Vorlon fighters didn' t get AJP to avoid probelms with SA and JPBombing?

A carrier would be a good addition to the fleet - as long as it is characterful thats cool

 

[katadder]

they would have the same problem the 1e WS fighter had (as that had a jump engine). fighters cannot do SAs. all it means is they could act normally on arrival.

 

[Grunvald]

they would have the same problem the 1e WS fighter had (as that had a jump engine). fighters cannot do SAs. all it means is they could act normally on arrival.

So in other words, giving a Vorlon fighter Jump Engines is a complete waste of time, due to the main reason being it can not perform a SA and the use of jump engines requires the use of such!

So it wont happen!

Just a quick question of top of my head doesnt it require a SA to open a jump point from hyperspace to real space anyway? cant remember!

 

[Alexb83]

Didn't it used to be the case in 1e that Vorlon ships had flight computers despite them having no practical use in game terms?

As Katadder points out, they can gain benefit from the jump drive trait in that it allows them to enter with another ship and act normally when they arrive.

Or in other terms, (heaven forfend!) you could change the rules such that Vorlon fighters can use their jump drives. It's not as if the Shadows/Vorlons/Ancients aren't already swimming in silly race specific rule alterations.

 

[katadder]

just reading B5Wars coming of the shadows book and seems the vorlons did have carriers in that, although their biggest carrier only carries 4 flights (and is based off a heavy cruiser).

 

[Grunvald]

Didn't it used to be the case in 1e that Vorlon ships had flight computers despite them having no practical use in game terms?

They still have Flight Computers, only really applied in campaigns where there are CQ rolls!

just reading B5Wars coming of the shadows book and seems the vorlons did have carriers in that, although their biggest carrier only carries 4 flights (and is based off a heavy cruiser).

:shock: HOLD THE HORSES!!!!

After being told they used B5W fluff that they dont have carriers, we now have actual HARD evidence that they do!!!

Even if it was based off of a Heavy Cruiser the evidence is now there that shows the vorlons did have carriers, being as so many ships have been tweaked and altered to fit in with the mongosse game system i cant see a reason why it should be based off of the same ship, could be any P level.

Smaller ships having slightly less fighter flights than larger ones of course!

 

[Da Boss]

Indeed you could keep the frankly boring and awful Dreadnought (or make it better) or make a Armgedd Carrier..................... :wink:

 

[Grunvald]

Indeed you could keep the frankly boring and awful Dreadnought (or make it better) or make a Armgedd Carrier..................... :wink:

:shock: And how many flights of fighters would a Armageddon Carrier have :?:

That just too scarry to think about.....it would have to be a Fleet carrier at the least at that level

And you already know my feelings on the DreadZERO!!!

 

[AdrianH]

A "Single" 1AD Beam from a Vorlon fighters is very unlicky to kill a capital ships, a squadron might do some damage though (Squadron being more than one!)

However, it can cause a critical. Four flights of fighters is effectively a 4AD precise beam. They can ignore anti-fighter by sitting out of range, have a reasonable chance of dodging any other fire from a capital ship, and have their own anti-fighter to take a shot at enemy fighter which comes near. And if they do get into a dogfight and lose, or manage to get killed by a capital ship, the carrier has a chance to respawn them.

Shadows can already carry fighters!

Which are nowhere near as scary as Vorlon fighters.

So give them a carrier if you think they need one, most people dont think it is needed in the shadow fleet list, this was probabley due to the fact that the shields on a fighter were all but pointless till the new Play Test rules!

I don't think anyone needs carriers, least of all Shadows or Vorlons - they're already powerful fleets, balanced by some weaknesses. Apart from poor quality fighters, the Shadows' weakness is their vulnerability to pinning. The Vorlons don't have that weakness. So fine, let their capital ships carry fighters; give them their fleet carrier to carry and respawn even more fighters; and then watch the Vorlon fleet become a nice set of paperweights because nobody will want to play against them.

And i hope i'm missreading what you are saying at the end about giving everyone Huge Hangers to make the game balanced!

I don't want to give everyone huge hangars, or even carriers. Some people seem to feel that every fleet should have similar capabilities, and by that logic, every fleet should have a ship with Huge Hangars. Alternatively, let different fleets have their own strengths and weaknesses, and learn to play with the strengths and weaknesses of the fleet you have chosen.

 

[Alexb83]

I think there's far more evidence to support giving the Vorlons hyperspace capable fighters than carriers, tbh.

Then again, why don't they have telepathic crews and get the same bonus as the Vree? It's fair enough that they can't disrupt Shadow ships as we never see them do it themselves.

Why do they have to worry about crew quality? If you're going to trim down their choice of special actions such that they can't even do things which are seen in the show (such as ramming) the least you could do is make them automatically pass their CQ checks, or giving them a CQ bonus. Half their ships are alive and don't even have crews!

These old chestnuts still haven't been answered in all the time I've played ACTA.

 

[katadder]

vorlons only have 2 carriers by B5 wars a heavy carrier based off the heavy cruiser carrying a mere 4 flights and a light carrier which I am guessing carries 2 flights.
the only other ship to carry fighters (2 flights) is the dreadnought which in B5W is the biggest ship before the planet killer and probably should be ancient level.

couple of things to note : ancients really dont like fighters so much as a craft that unsurvivable is not good. vorlons only use fighters because shadows started using them. vorlon fighters are piloted by angents of the vorlons, not actual vorlons as they wouldnt risk themselves in things so vulnerable. shadow fighters are automatons made up of part of the launching shadow ship, they can be controlled by the pilot of said ship but are generally left to their own devices.