Playtest - Whitestar
- Thread starter mollari_uk
- Start date
Methos5000
Mongoose
That is kinda my point though in 1st ed only the Narn and Brakiri has emines and the Brakiri was on one war level ship.skavendan said:
Now, Abbai, pak'ma'ra, Gaim, Brakiri, Crusade EA, Narn all have emines. Thats a 3 fold increase and people with dodge arent the only ones that suffer to this increase, heavy interceptor and stealth races suffer also.
And the response to this 3 fold increase is the the Whitestar can no longer fire all it weapons at full AD.
Add in the Liati being a good choice for the Centauri now and the shadows ever present Whitestar killer the scout and the Drahk light raider Dodge at times is becoming almost a liability not a benefit.
And its funny that I know I can patch alot of the ISA fleet weaknesses quite easily by cheesing my fleet up and taking Gaim Allies but I refuse to do that because I know that make ISA too good.
In pure ISA fleets I think I have lost more then I have won because the ISA can be overwhelmed by fighters/emines/accurate guns one of which most races have access to.
I think you would eliminate most of the perceived problems with the ISA fleet by limiting its allies choices, not by toning down the Whitestar.
But the Whitestar as it is will just encourage me to start using more allies...those Gaim raid level ships are starting to look really good.
mollari_uk
Mongoose
Hence changing CBD would be better. Stops cheese in many fleets but doesn't change the WS fundamentally. :wink:
Methos5000
Mongoose
And I have no problem with it, im actually fine with this being unavailable to use on Whitestar/Bluestar class ships (BS, WSI, WSI, WSG and WSC). Fluff it up to being something with the mix of Vorlon and Minbari tech that isolating portions of the ships has a negative impact of the Adaptive Armor or something.mollari_uk said:
mollari_uk
Mongoose
No it's not.
There are plenty of ships with 2 weapons where 1 isn't that great or is slow loading. CBD is a no-brainer for these ships as it is for WS most of the time.
Half AD is the way to go here. Only thing to consider is does it make it too good for ships with lots of weapons?
There are plenty of ships with 2 weapons where 1 isn't that great or is slow loading. CBD is a no-brainer for these ships as it is for WS most of the time.
Half AD is the way to go here. Only thing to consider is does it make it too good for ships with lots of weapons?
mollari_uk said:
I agree same as for intensify defensive fire make that SA automatic, and give CBD halfed fire power. THIS would make most of the Narn problems go away in 1 change. As they could use CBD on big ships and still fire there large quantities of different weapons.
I'd be fine with CBD causing half AD, then I lose the 1AD if I CBD before getting in range of both weapons. I can then fire both of my Dag'Kar weapon systems, just halving both sets of dice, rounding down I'd imagine, as that seems to be how this game resolves remainders, which I can support.
Foxmeister
Mongoose
skavendan said:
I disagree - it would actually further exacerbate the problem! G'Quans being slow and lumbering seldom survive long enough to get all the mass AD secondaries into the action, and most players aren't going to put themselves in that 8" range so for the most part they might as well not be there. So, halfing AD on the beam will just make it worse.
Regards,
Dave
It's be an across the races change so it would only impare them as much as everyone else so get over it. The real issue is war class and arma as the new CBD does nothing for them because no1 in there right mind is going to use it. Stops far too much from firing as it currently is.
Foxmeister
Mongoose
skavendan said:
You specifically stated that it solved most of the Narn problems - it doesn't, so it's a bad solution for the Narn.
Regards,
Dave
Methos5000
Mongoose
It may not solve the Narns problems but it will at least be an 'everyone is in the same boat' situation. As it is now too many ship benefit too much from CBD, Demos, Dag'kar, Whitestars over 10" away from their enemy (the the current WS nerf does reflect the 1/2 AD for the beam anyway).
Any ship that has two weapons where either one is A)slow-loading or B) has a low AD weapon they are willing to give up for extra survivability can gain too much from this.
I agree that this can be powerful on Whitestars from the whole stacking defenses perspective, which is why I am fine with the 1/2 AD cost. I even mentioned above that I don't care if Whitestars can't use it.
Narn have some pretty weak secondaries so right now the current CBD benefits them more, but then they just got a huge bonus to CBD. Other races can never use it because it kills to much of their firepower. Look at the Dilgar lots of their ships have Bolters and 2 bank of missiles in the front arc, using only one weapon system kills alot of their firepower so the Dilgar player in our group never uses its and the Dilgar have plenty of glass cannons.
I like the 1/2 AD because the big beefy ships can get in close and still survive to fire at multiple ships.
Plus it never made much sense that on those huge ships CBD would negate all that firepower.
Making it 1/2 AD across the board means there doesn't need to be exceptions to the rule.
Besides the main problem with the big ships will still always be crits, the new G'Quan with Narn CBD has what...130 effective damage points? It will be rendered weaponless and adrift long before it dies from damage.
But Crits are a whole other can of worms....
Any ship that has two weapons where either one is A)slow-loading or B) has a low AD weapon they are willing to give up for extra survivability can gain too much from this.
I agree that this can be powerful on Whitestars from the whole stacking defenses perspective, which is why I am fine with the 1/2 AD cost. I even mentioned above that I don't care if Whitestars can't use it.
Narn have some pretty weak secondaries so right now the current CBD benefits them more, but then they just got a huge bonus to CBD. Other races can never use it because it kills to much of their firepower. Look at the Dilgar lots of their ships have Bolters and 2 bank of missiles in the front arc, using only one weapon system kills alot of their firepower so the Dilgar player in our group never uses its and the Dilgar have plenty of glass cannons.
I like the 1/2 AD because the big beefy ships can get in close and still survive to fire at multiple ships.
Plus it never made much sense that on those huge ships CBD would negate all that firepower.
Making it 1/2 AD across the board means there doesn't need to be exceptions to the rule.
Besides the main problem with the big ships will still always be crits, the new G'Quan with Narn CBD has what...130 effective damage points? It will be rendered weaponless and adrift long before it dies from damage.
But Crits are a whole other can of worms....
Narn update improved CBD usefullness to a war class ship NON ZIP ZILTCH.
CBD has been moronic for a long time and your responce.
"You specifically stated that it solved most of the Narn problems - it doesn't, so it's a bad solution for the Narn"
Nice detailed responce arguing your point o no wait you just said it doesn't. You want to argue your case then feel free but at least put some heart into it.
CBD has been moronic for a long time and your responce.
"You specifically stated that it solved most of the Narn problems - it doesn't, so it's a bad solution for the Narn"
Nice detailed responce arguing your point o no wait you just said it doesn't. You want to argue your case then feel free but at least put some heart into it.
Foxmeister
Mongoose
skavendan said:
Already did in my previous post to which your response was "get over it" -I see no point repeating myself when as far as you're concerned the issue isn't up for debate.
Regards,
Dave
stepan.razin
Mongoose
Foxmeister said:
Actually, all the GQuans were destroyed and not replaced, or at least that is the likeliest explanation that I can see from their absence from any game that I ever fought against the narn
Foxmeister said:
So you want to get your G'Quan within 8" so you can add what 6 damage? You call this worth while? At 8" most other ships will tear you apart. and using the new CBD you would have to choose beam or 8" gun. You choose? no choice really. where as if you had 2AD of beam and 5AD normal damage you would have the potential to do far more.
And if you noticed I didn't use the G'Quan as referrence point I said WAR CLASS or arma.
G’Vrahn-class Fast Cruiser
Has 4 F arc weapons and 1 B arc weapon. Currently it could CBD and well die slowly. OR you could have a CBD that would allow it to half it's AD and fire:
Advanced Mag Gun 25 F 2 Beam, Triple Damage
Heavy Laser Cannon 30 B 3 Beam, Double Damage
Advanced Energy Mine 45 F 3 AP, Energy Mine, Slow-Loading, Triple Damage
Ion Torpedo 30 F 2 Precise, Super AP
Pulse Cannon 10 F 5 —
With would make CBD far better and stop being the monkey SA o look I have 2 weapons I will CBD all the time and just use one
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Methos5000 said:
This is the reason that, if you can figure out how to get the most out the Assault Dilgar fleet. Because, if you can ge the Rohric there and keep it there, it uses CBD as well as any ship in the game.
Restructuring CBD is such a big part of the balance of the game that changing it here is hopelessly Out of Scope. This'll have to wait for V3.
Methos5000
Mongoose
CZuschlag said:
Thats true the Rohric is another ship that can gain a lot by using it.
It still seems like changing to 1/2 AD would be a good change though, its an across the board change that effects all ships in the same manner. And can benefit larger ships over smaller ones as larger ships will be able to fire more batteries of weapons.
But perhaps it is to big a change for P&P.
Methos - the problem is that it doesn't affect every ship in the same way. The rule is the same for every ship but the amount that it affects the ship's firepower changes radically. Just compare how it affects the Drakh Heavy Raider compared to the EA Nova Dreadnought and the Minbari Sharkaan. One ship will never use the SA once in range, one is unlikely to use it due to having multiple arcs of fire and the other will use it most of the time due to relying on one big beam as its main weapon.
