Playtest - Whitestar

[Foxmeister]

I am frustrated, that you would take my appreciation for the art of the White Star, the design that I don't think has been beat yet in Science Fiction, as a sign that my understanding of the game is somehow slanted.

It looks to me like the fully preserved remains of a Quagaar warrior, so I guess we disagree on the "art" of the White Star!

However, you said:

You can't take a quick stab at me, and then defend the statement by using my frustration at your own insult. As per the school yard rules, you started it =)

On the contrary, you started it when you said:

Dispute what I have said, as you will, but making blanket statements that because the weapons are mounted on the nose, it must only be able to shoot forward... on a ship that can fly sideways... moving still, and firing all weapons... *sigh*.

That is at least as insulting as my comment about you "defending" the White Star, and the "*sign*" is a clear indication of the tone the comment was made in.

I said the developers agree that the White Star should not be boresighted

They also thought that the Gaim in their original incarnation was balanced...... Agreeing with the developers doesn't automatically make you right, and disagreeing with them doesn't automatically make you wrong either.

Putting Boresight on the table, in an official capacity, is a whole nother issue.

No it isn't because we are talking about the White Star and its relative effectiveness, and this *always* comes up in that debate.

So yes, I do not like having one of my AD removed if I plan to do anything else. That said, that has little to do with my dislike of the boresight rule in general, and I'd hope you can keep the two separate as we continue this discussion.

When talking about the White Star, you can't separate the boresight issue because it is part and parcel of many peoples issues with the vessel. In my opinion, if the White Star had been boresighted from day 1, more attention would have been put into the interplay between initiative and boresight in the first place and we wouldn't see these issues today.

Making the White Star (the most iconic ship in the show) forward arc papered over the cracks for one single vessel and did not address the problem as a whole.

Regards,

Dave[/quote]

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Making the White Star (the most iconic ship in the show) forward arc papered over the cracks for one single vessel and did not address the problem as a whole.

Regards,

Dave

It's also extremely frustrating for the proponents of front-arced Omegas and G'Quans, and frankly makes a mockery of the statement that MGP wanted to follow the on-screen evidence as closely as possible.

We saw the Omega gain side-firing light lasers because they appear to have such weapons in one single scene. We saw the entire Centauri list re-written to almost match the screen no-beams evidence... and then we see the White Star remain front-arced when it's one of the only consistent boresight ships seen on the show, and the Omega and G'Quan remain boresighted when they're clearly seen to have the front arc for their beams.

 

[skavendan]

Making the White Star (the most iconic ship in the show) forward arc papered over the cracks for one single vessel and did not address the problem as a whole.

Regards,

Dave

It's also extremely frustrating for the proponents of front-arced Omegas and G'Quans, and frankly makes a mockery of the statement that MGP wanted to follow the on-screen evidence as closely as possible.

We saw the Omega gain side-firing light lasers because they appear to have such weapons in one single scene. We saw the entire Centauri list re-written to almost match the screen no-beams evidence... and then we see the White Star remain front-arced when it's one of the only consistent boresight ships seen on the show, and the Omega and G'Quan remain boresighted when they're clearly seen to have the front arc for their beams.

Yup the G'Quan is seen to straf past its targets firing it's beam kinda cool, but non the less lumbering + B arc = Allstop and pivot all game. in most cases.

The Whitestar fires from the nose. it's 2/90 turns I don't see what is the big fuss.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Yup the G'Quan is seen to straf past its targets firing it's beam kinda cool, but non the less lumbering + B arc = Allstop and pivot all game. in most cases.

The Whitestar fires from the nose. it's 2/90 turns I don't see what is the big fuss.

No White Star would ever have a problem achieving a boresight, it's among the most agile ships in the game. Seems to me the ISA players want the White Star to be the best ship in the game.

 

[silashand]

No White Star would ever have a problem achieving a boresight, it's among the most agile ships in the game.

Agreed. Personally, I don't see much of a disadvantage by making the WS boresight personally given all its other traits.

Cheers, Gary

 

[Everyman]

While I do not think that making the ship boresight would have been an issue with our group, the current changes have proven to limit this ship too much and they are under performing now. While I agree that it was one of the best raid level ships there was, it was not ridiculously over powered and would have been fine with us remaining as it was.

 

[katadder]

most of us want to see boresight whitestars. I agree with it being the most boresighted ship in the show, i agree it would be a good balance fix and also it can now make use of TTT. I hate the modification currently in play for the WS as IMO is does turn it into quite a crappy ship.

 

[Methos5000]

I would prefer the new power restriction rule go away. Granted I am an ISA player so I could be biased but I agree with Katadder the current modification is crappy.

I don't have a problem with a Whitestar gaining boresight to a degree. There is a special action that helps with that now and maybe they could do a special action that represents the side slipping while firing...who knows. The potential problem with this is instead of someone taking 2 WS they will take 1 WS and 3 BS less beam power but Pulsar fire has doubled, plus 3 sinks for a boresight weapon.

Another question that would come up, Would the Gunship and Carrier also be Boresight? Since there is not onscreen evidence for these ships it cant be used as an argument and it could be argued that since these are larger hulls they might have been able to squeeze in a swivel mount for the beam.

 

[katadder]

the gunship I would say is definately boresight. carrier not so sure, maybe but then I dont see why it shouldnt be. EA goes boresight upto war so ISA could too. victory should probably also be boresight on its nuetron lasers but wont go there with this ship

 

[dag'karlove]

the gunship I would say is definately boresight. carrier not so sure, maybe but then I dont see why it shouldnt be. EA goes boresight upto war so ISA could too. victory should probably also be boresight on its nuetron lasers but wont go there with this ship

This is why you dont write the rules

 

[katadder]

well its not like the gunship would have problems getting on target either having 2/90s as well.

 

[lastbesthope]

Just curious LBH, what would you do to it?

(I still vote for a bore beam )

I'm not sure, but I know what my luck is like with 2 beam dice, and that's bad enough :lol:

LBH

 

[lastbesthope]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dalydgg0p-4

Strafes the Earth Force vessels... firing all weapons.

Zips through the Vorlon Outpost... firing all weapons.

Makes a complete 180 in flight... fires all weapons.

You were saying?

I was saying, any object in space can do that. Vector-based movement represents it and isn't used in ACtA.

Any object with suitably oriented and powerful thruster systems can. Not every ship in the B5 universe will have as good a setup as a WS.

Compare, aerodynamically nothing an F-15 does is impossible for an aircraft, but a 747 will lose a game of follow the leader against one.

LBH

 

[Hindsight]

Not to split hairs, but aerodynamics are irrelevant in space.

The White Star was the most advanced ship ever created by the younger races, up until that point. That comes from every Wiki, every piece of lore you can find out there. It should be a Skirmish level ship, it is tiny, and it is strong. The developers represented its strength by making it a raid level craft, so you pay for it at the raid level, ie, get fewer of them.

This is the last time I'm going to say this.

Front Arc on a White Star, represents its maneuverability, maneuverability unmatched on any other craft to date. Comparing other, slower, much larger craft, to our smaller sleaker, powered by vorlon tech craft... it just doesn't compare.

By that logic all Vorlon craft should be bore sight as well, as their guns are all front mounted too. I don't see any side guns on a Sharlin... it must not be able to fire Sideways. The Victory is absolutely forward firing... especially as firing it drains all power...

It is a game concession, to represent the inadequette movement system, in relation to the rest of the craft in the game. The White Star can stop on a dime, flip upside down, and immediatly unload all guns. We see that countless times in the show, and even in the game we have to move 25%, turn 90, then move 1" and turn 90 more... that is still the ability to turn 180 but not exactly as seen on the show, so the forward arc makes up the difference.

If you want your ships to not be bore sight. Great. That has nothing to do with the White Star.

I will only be responding to comments about the current changes to the White Star, if the developers decide to offer a Bore Sight version of the White Star, then I'll discuss that again, but this is becoming a thread where people unburden their frustrations at losing to the ISA blaming our one good ship, the iconic ship, one of the few canonical ships to actually be worth taking, and you want that nerfed to be worse than the G'Quan.

Yea... that'll do wonders for the survivability of this game. *thumbs up*

Raid 5 is 15 Blue Stars, if I understand the new FAP correctly. 12 AD vs. 6 for 1 Raid Point. Nerf the White Star, and many will just be saying how overpowered the Blue Star is, come the next play test session. So I'm done, I don't see it going on the table, so I'm not going to waste my time further, debating a dead horse topic that was dead long before I ever knew what bore sight even meant.

 

[Triggy]

katadder (and all those who dislike the current modifications to the White Star) - the White Star at the moment is overpowered adn needs a downgrade. I've said several times that I don't mind whether or not this is boresight or the rule I suggested (both are canon things shown in the show) but it does need something for the reasons I've posted in previous posts.

 

[lastbesthope]

Not to split hairs, but aerodynamics are irrelevant in space.

I know that, I was using it as a comparison, there aren't enough real world spacecraft that everyone knows inside out to use, whereas most people are familiar with aircraft.

I honestly can't think of two spacecraft in the real world to use in the same comparison, so I switched to aircraft. Yes aerodynamics has nothing to do with exoatmospheric spacecraft, but I was using the aerodynamic limits as a similar constraint set to the spacecraft limits. All craft have the same physical limitations placed on them by Physics, but the performance envelopes are wildly different.

LBH

 

[stepan.razin]

katadder (and all those who dislike the current modifications to the White Star) - the White Star at the moment is overpowered adn needs a downgrade. I've said several times that I don't mind whether or not this is boresight or the rule I suggested (both are canon things shown in the show) but it does need something for the reasons I've posted in previous posts.

There is always a ship that is better then most other ships in its category in a game which classifies its ships in the MGP FAP manner. Its just not granular enough.

The Universe created raid level ships.... FAP made them unequal

 

[Greg Smith]

No White Star would ever have a problem achieving a boresight, it's among the most agile ships in the game.

It's agility does indeed allow it get boresights. Unless it is outsinked by an enemy with more ships.

Which is the fundamental problem with boresights.

 

[Foxmeister]

No White Star would ever have a problem achieving a boresight, it's among the most agile ships in the game.

It's agility does indeed allow it get boresights. Unless it is outsinked by an enemy with more ships.

Which is the fundamental problem with boresights.

Amen to that Brother Greg!

Fix boresights/initiative and then there's no reason why the most obviously boresighted ship in the show can't be boresighted! It's already got the speed and manoeuvrability to get a boresight at a whim as long as it's not outsinked and I see no reason why this cannot be addressed in P&P.

Regards,

Dave

 

[l33tpenguin]

No White Star would ever have a problem achieving a boresight, it's among the most agile ships in the game.

It's agility does indeed allow it get boresights. Unless it is outsinked by an enemy with more ships.

Which is the fundamental problem with boresights.

And its difficult to out sink the ISA. The white star alone makes up the majority of the ISA force and is raid, if you are up against a swarm fleet, the Blue Stars are an excellent option to augment your init sinking