Playtest rules - Narn updates

Foxmeister

Mongoose
As the Narn are still my preferred fleet (and I have many others), I was mostly interested in what happened to the Narn in P&P.

Here are my initial thoughts:

1. CBD on 4+. I'm a little worried that this might be a little too effective, but I'm hoping to get a game in next Monday to try it out. The G'Quan will definitely benefit from this given the short ranged secondaries and O/S e-mine. My biggest concern is probably the Dag'Kar which was a fine ship already and this may make it a little too good.

2. G'Quan update. My initial thoughts were that these didn't go far enough. However, with the new TTT SA and the Narns improved CDB my gut feeling is that this will work out quite well. At least I'll have the potential to fire them off bore now! :)

3. G'Vrahn update. Whilst it's never nice to see a preferred ship nerfed, I'm pleased that this wasn't too destructive. It has definitely made the Bin'Tak a more viable choice without really reducing the effectiveness of the G'Vrahn.

Regards,

Dave
 
Personally I think the improved CBD will benefit a few ships a little too mich - Sho'kovs & Dag'kars for example, but most of the fleet not so much - since you are often firing more them one weapon.
 
Greg Smith said:
Personally I think the improved CBD will benefit a few ships a little too mich - Sho'kovs & Dag'kars for example, but most of the fleet not so much - since you are often firing more them one weapon.

Agreed. Since it's for the Narn specifically, I think a lowered CQ check would be more appropriate since they are used to battering the storm per se. This would allow them to use it more often, but it wouldn't overly benefit any one ship over another. JMO...

Cheers, Gary
 
Greg Smith said:
Personally I think the improved CBD will benefit a few ships a little too mich - Sho'kovs & Dag'kars for example, but most of the fleet not so much - since you are often firing more them one weapon.

The Dag'Kar was the first ship I thought of. The second is the Var'Nic. Then the Ka'Tan/Ka'Toc. I truly worry about enhanced CBD. Good direction, but I think the number of sides left on the die is getting very small.
 
CZuschlag said:
The Dag'Kar was the first ship I thought of. The second is the Var'Nic. Then the Ka'Tan/Ka'Toc. I truly worry about enhanced CBD. Good direction, but I think the number of sides left on the die is getting very small.

I'm not so worried by the Var'Nic because all the while your using this SA, you're not using Track That Target and I think the Var'Nic is going to use that quite a bit.

Regards,

Dave
 
well the narn i played tonight never used track that target and a varnic would need it less than others anyway due to having 2 turns.
the only ships i see it broken on is the torpedo cutter (5+ dodge, 4+ save and good d/c scores) and the dag'kar who will always be on it.
 
katadder said:
the only ships i see it broken on is the torpedo cutter (5+ dodge, 4+ save and good d/c scores) and the dag'kar who will always be on it.

Well, for the Dag'Kar, every other turn anyway.

Regards,

Dave
 
If we are worried about the low level Narn ships benefitting too much from the CBD order - how about restricitng it to raid Lvl and above?
 
The Dag'Kar is a raid level ship, and it's most likely the ship with the biggest issue here. Assuming it turns out to be an issue, I would probably be inclined to change the wording of the rule to specifically state that the Dag'Kar and Sho'Kov/Sho'Kos can't benefit from this rule.

Regards,

Dave
 
The dag kar may look like a problem however remember that its a raid level bombardement ship meant to sit backk and just blow things up. If they were took in moderation in a balanced fleet i really can't see a problem arising, however if they were took in great enough no.s such as the majority of ships i can see a problem arising. You may be looking at putting a limit on them for tournaments much like the saggitarius.

I do love what they did to the GQuan, would have prefered a F arc laser, but hey.
 
If you have to put a limit on the number of ships that you can field to balance them, they ain't balanced.

Suggestion: The Narn have two versions of Close Blast Doors. The standard one works as is. The new one ignores critical effects on a chance of 1 in 6, damage on a 4+, crew on a 5+ (Narn aren't very good at saving themselves, they want to sacrifice nobly way too often), and, under this SA, cannot fire AT ALL.
 
No. 1 Bear said:
I do love what they did to the GQuan, would have prefered a F arc laser, but hey.

I'm going to try a 5pt Raid on Monday, and my current idea is:

1 G'Quan
1 Var'Nic
1 Dag'Kar
1 Skirmish ship (undecided, but either Sho'Kar, Thentus, or T'Rakk)
4 Sho'Kov

I'm hoping that the new CBD and the changes to the G'Quan are going to make it more viable than the old version when compared to the Var'Nic/Dag'Kar combo, though I'm generally of the opinion that the G'Quan is still the worst of all its variant hulls due to the O/S on the e-mine.

What I will be looking for is the survivability of the G'Quan until it can get into secondary range, and how long the Dag'Kar can last when it'll be CBD'ing practically every other turn.

Regards,

Dave
 
Foxmeister said:
3. G'Vrahn update. Whilst it's never nice to see a preferred ship nerfed, I'm pleased that this wasn't too destructive. It has definitely made the Bin'Tak a more viable choice without really reducing the effectiveness of the G'Vrahn.

While I agree this might make the G'Quonth a more viable choice, the Bin'Tak still needs a revamp to even make it a contender. Probably if the laser cannon range was increased to 30 and it too received a damage boost (like maybe +20) to make it a more durable brawler than the other 2 war level choices since it is lacking their firepower and/or manuverability.
 
Initial thoughts...

CBD issues -

How about you can't use CBD and E-mines in the same turn? Can't secure the ship and play with massive explosive charges at the same time you know. Could also throw in the Ion Torps (I can see these as similar to the mines for not safe to load and launch) to stop all the bombardment issues, making it useful for closing ships with a moderate range weapon but not useful for bombarding sinks. Deals nicely with both problem ships.

Or, a bit like Chris's idea, but make it instead of a bonus to damage/crew soaking... give them a crit soak of 5/6+. Could leave standard CBD restrictions in place

The Narns' big issue is they take more hits than those with active defenses leading to more crits, which not only degrades them with effects but pushes the damage they take even higher... making a mockery of the famous Narn damage/crew boost that was supposed to compensate for no active defense. This way if they are willing to shoot fewer weapons, they at least are on par with the rest of the world for taking crits.

Once the brawl starts of course their natural Narniness takes over and they abandon all the restraint to get in a few extra whacks.

Ripple
 
Personally, I have no particular problem with the proposed special CBD rule for the Narn. So the Dag'kar gains more out of it than other ships. Something is always going to gain greater benefit from rules like that regardless. I am not sure that represents a problem. If the decision that Narn ships are supposed to be tougher than galactic norm, then then I don't see why the Dag'Kar should be left out. After all, if they can make a Thentus that sturdy, why wouldn't they do so for one of the crown jewels of their fleet? If they would give that protection to any ship outside of the G'Vrahn and the Bin'Tak series it would be the Dag'Kar. Most other races get their schtick on all of their ships, why should the Narn be different.

Personally I would have preferred a passive save vs. crit hits (perhaps a 5-6) on larger Narn warshipships (T'Loth, all battle, all war, all armageddon) and a 6 on all other non-auxilliaries but I think the rule as proposed is acceptable.

The G'Vrahn changes I like. But then again they are similar to ones I proposed. 8) I would have kept the damage and dropped the frazis though as I stated in previous posts. If the Narn ever get an advanced fighter that is quicker I'd change my mind.

Giving the G'Quan a +1 to its beam is putting a bit of plaster on the problem. It and the Bin'Tak need to be able to re-load the e-mines. If the technology was available and could be squeezed onto a G'Quan hull with all the extras the G'Quonth has, it can certainly fit on the same-size G'Quan and the much larger Bin'Tak. The G'Lan is still a better ship than the G'Quan in almost any situation except one where 1 e-mine shot makes a difference and that shouldn't be.

Tzarevitch
 
I would have prefered to see armour increased on most narn ships to represent there toughness. They seem to be one of the only fleets without a Hull 6 skirmish level ship and that can hurt in skirmish and patrol games against the uber centuari weapons. Just giving the dagkar Hull 5 and maybe the rongoth Hull 6 would redress some narn issues without needing any new rules? Though I do think the CBD new rule would also be ok but I already hear the galaxy moaning about the narn getting any kind of advantage over the other races!
 
I just tested out the G'quan. 3 GQuan (standard) vs 3 Omegas (standard).

The game was very close, the extra damage really did help the GQuan in terms of survability. The gquans emines were useful however i can now see the reason why they remained OS.

I will explain the emines were used to remove some fighter but also to deal damage to the ships. However if the GQuan had gotten a SL emine i feel that it would have become a long range bombardement cruiser with a large beam on CBD every other turn a bit much really. The Gquans once firing their emines sat on CBD for pretty much the whole game just using their secondarys occasionally to clear out some loose fighters.

It was definately a better game than it would have been before, however the GQuan i dont feel needs long range SL emines. As it would just become a dag kar with a big laser and thats really tough.
 
exactly, in a fight between an Omega and a G'quan both on CBD after the e-mine launch the G'quan now has the advantage. 1AD extra beam and 5+ saves versus 4+ saves and 17 more damage.
 
No. 1 Bear said:
However if the GQuan had gotten a SL emine i feel that it would have become a long range bombardement cruiser with a large beam on CBD every other turn a bit much really.

I can see your point of view here, but I think that there is still an issue with the G'Quan over its variants. With the G'Vrahn losing its Command trait, the G'Tal becomes a much more viable option as a "cheap" command ship, and the G'Lan always was a better pick than the G'Quan (IMHO of course) and this hasn't changed except that the G'Quan gets an extra AD and is more likely to get a "free" CBD.

I'd probably be inclined to drop the medium laser cannon on the G'Lan, and increase the AD on the mag gun to 4 - after all it is supposed to be a "Mag Cruiser".

Regards,

Dave
 
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