[[[Playtest Question]]] Nuclear Weapons

MongooseMatt

Administrator
Staff member
Hi guys,

I think we can all agree that nuclear weapons should be Destructive :)

But if a Traveller (say in Battle Dress) or a Super Heavy Tank is at the centre (or near centre) of a blast, how much damage do you think it should be taking?

Bear in mind that survival could always be attributed to being in a shadow of a hill, behind a particularly tough building, etc...

But in game terms, how much damage?
 
msprange said:
Hi guys,

I think we can all agree that nuclear weapons should be Destructive :)

But if a Traveller (say in Battle Dress) or a Super Heavy Tank is at the centre (or near centre) of a blast, how much damage do you think it should be taking?

Bear in mind that survival could always be attributed to being in a shadow of a hill, behind a particularly tough building, etc...

But in game terms, how much damage?
OK, I'm 1) not a physicist and 2) not answering the question but consider this if you haven't already...
* Despite the blast, what other things are there to consider - for example electro-magnetic pulse, exposure to radioactivity
* What about nuclear damping? Noticed something about that, somewhere. If something employing nuclear damping is at the centre of the detonation, will the damage be just the damage inflicted by the conventional explosives used as the trigger for the nuclear reaction?
 
The thermal energy is huge, but one could imagine that a powerful suit could be able to do something to resist it - but nowhere near all. Similarly, the radiation could be resisted but what happens when you take the suit off? The physical blast? Regardless of the strength enhancement of the tank/suit I think it would be lethal.

I mean, a nuclear blast is like flying into a sun to a degree. Your ship could resist something of it, but the destructiveness is still beyond the scope.

So, centre of nuclear blast? - I think tanks and battlesuits have met their match. That said, you could say it soaks half damage - just that half the damage is still catastrophic. With shelter, maybe more. It's really hard to say when your talking about science fiction vs a weapon that can level a city.
 
Well Matt - the best and simplest way would be to simply match it up to a Nuclear Torpedo, or missile, depending on warhead strength. Basically - use ship weapons as the guideline.

Centre could be something akin to 6DD for a bigger ICBM, perhaps 4DD for an average missile, 1-2DD for some tactical suit-case nuke or so..
 
How does that damage compare to an FGMP?

A nuclear blast should be AT LEAST as damaging as a Fusion gun from a Tank, more so actually.

Say 4DD per Kiloton? within a 1km radius and then use the same rules as other area-effect weapons like hand-grenades and explosions (already in the rules).

Then you can size your weapons, or design modern ones from that. Armour etc. would have normal effect.

A nuclear Dampner could completely block the attack, but would have to successfully attack against the strength of the blast (bigger blasts are harder to stop).
 
msprange said:
If a Traveller (say in Battle Dress) or a Super Heavy Tank is at the centre (or near centre) of a blast, how much damage do you think it should be taking?

Bear in mind that survival could always be attributed to being in a shadow of a hill, behind a particularly tough building, etc...
What hill? What building? If they were at the center of the blast they are gone and there is a crater hundreds, perhaps thousands of meters in diameter instead. Search on "Castle Bravo" or "Bravo Crater". A 2000 meter crater from a 1950s nuclear test.

Perhaps if one wants a Hollywood version and the suit/vehicle has protection from the heat, radiation, and so on they could be thrown clear and survive hand waving that the suit/vehicles G-force inertia compensators can handle something this devastating. Now you just need to wait to be rescued - dug out from the pile of debris.

EDIT:
See http://academo.org/demos/nuclear-craters/
I found Lake Chagan interesting: detonating a nuclear device for the purposes of creating a lake.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Explosions_for_the_National_Economy could lead to some interesting adventures. We're just hauling "mining equipment".
 
I think we have to keep in mind in that we have armour that stops multiple ton near-light speed space rail gun ammunition as well as boat-sized space radiation/particle cannons.

We're kind of fooling ourselves if we assume that but think any nuke should be doing more than 4dd or 6dd. I'm sure someone can determine the force a nuclear blast versus a 2 ton space rail gun shell travelling at something even as slow as 50000 m/s, plus the speed of the target ship approaching plus the speed of the attacking ship...

And when that shell hits, it does 3D space dmg...

I know some of us get all wowed by nukes and so on.... But in comparison to what armour is shrugging off in a scifi game, nukes should longer be "poof - ur all gone". It is trAditionally one of those great inconsistentcies but thankfully traveller didn't seem to have it before so I'd be against introducing it now :)
 
A nuke is an area effect weapon and the way I've used it in the past is on a damage per volume basis. So, that fellow in the Battle Dress would take 6DD but then the grav tank beside him would take 6DD multiplied by a size factor. That way you can account for the specific damage to an individual and also level a concrete building due to its size.
 
Matt - in game terms, it should be as per nuclear torpedo. Otherwise we're just asking for inconsistencies. Bigger nukes: larger area affected, not more dice of damage. I hope the giant trap is obvious if we start having icbms or nukes doing more game-term damage dice than a nuclear torpedo

As it is a 6dd (6d space scale) is also pretty much "why you even rolling?" :)
 
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
Sounds reasonable to me.

So a "Pocket Nuke" is equivalent to a Nuclear Missile?

Works for me...

There would be no problem with us scaling smaller nukes (sure, have 2DD pocket nuke, maybe a 4DD tactical missile, etc).. but the absolute maximum 'damage dice' of a nuke should be equivalent to whatever space-scale nuclear torpedo is.

Bigger than that? Sure - but larger areas only, not more 'dice'.
 
Nerhesi said:
Matt - in game terms, it should be as per nuclear torpedo. Otherwise we're just asking for inconsistencies. Bigger nukes: larger area affected, not more dice of damage. I hope the giant trap is obvious if we start having icbms or nukes doing more game-term damage dice than a nuclear torpedo

As it is a 6dd (6d space scale) is also pretty much "why you even rolling?" :)

I see where you're coming from, but there are some issues with this approach.

The first is we need to factor in what a 'hit' means in space combat. I imagine it means that the warhead got close enough that, when detonated, it could inflict damage on the ship. It doesn't necessarily mean it physically made contact with the ship then exploded. The latter would be equivalent to a maximum roll on the damage dice.

In ground combat you're more likely to be in a situation in which several units (vehicles, people, anything you care about that could take damage) are close enough to the detonation to take damage, which given the ranges in space combat isn't something you normally need to consider.

Regarding damage effect though, a nuclear explosion in an atmosphere, and especially near the surface, can for many reasons be considerably more damaging than an explosion in space. In a vacuum the detonation creates a heat flash that bakes you on one side, then you get hit by super-heated material from the bomb itself which very rapidly disperses. On a planetary surface with an atmosphere the first effect is that the radiated heat flash from the explosion hits you directly, but also reflects off the ground and surrounding objects back at you from all directions. Next, the thermal energy from the explosion heats up the atmosphere and objects around you which then cook you for an extended period of time, again from all directions. The atmospheric pressure around the fireball also acts like a bottle containing most the energy from the explosion in the immediate area. The atmosphere also acts as a medium through which the shock wave of the explosion is conducted. It's like the difference between being briefly hit by a very fast high pressure water jet from a hose and being hit by a tsunami. Finally just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, convection then causes the fireball to rise up into the atmosphere, which creates a vacuum at ground zero, and surrounding debris is sucked into it at enormous speeds. If you're light enough and not nailed down, there's a reasonable chance you won't have to deal with that though because you'll get sucked up along with the fireball instead.

This is all one of the reasons why many physicists are skeptical of plans to use nuclear warheads to deflect asteroids. Nuclear weapons are certainly dangerous, but are an awful lot less effective in space than most people would expect. You can mitigate this a bit by carrying ablative material on the warhead, but every kg of that material you take reduces the performance of the missile in other ways.

Simon Hibbs
 
Good points Mr. Hibbs - that would support increasing damage somewhat within a thick-enough atmosphere and other variables :)
 
Nerhesi said:
Good points Mr. Hibbs - that would support increasing damage somewhat within a thick-enough atmosphere and other variables :)

Yep, that could work.

It might be fun to play through the strike round by round and make the whole thing the focus of the session, though I can't see this being worth taking space in the main rulebook.

Round 1, heat flash. Roll Xdd damage, roll for blindness and unconsciousnesses.
Round 2, shockwave. Roll Ydd damage and test against STR to avoid knockdown.
Round 3, 4 and 5 thermal. Roll Pdd, Qdd, then Rdd damage and test against battle dress cooling system failure or take another dose of damage.
Round 6, convection. Test against STR to hold onto something to avoid being sucked up into the fireball. On failure, repeat Round 3, 4 and 5 again then take falling damage.
Round 7, 8 and 9 debris. Roll DEX each round to avoid Zdd from debris driven by hurricane force winds.

Ok, anyone still standing?

Simon Hibbs
 
Interestingly.. consider what is DD damage though before we state everything is DD.

What survives ground zero? Does a reinforced concrete building even partially survive? Would some giant hulk of metal?

Has anything ever survived a ground zero nuclear detonation? Now think of something a couple of magnitudes stronger...
 
Nerhesi said:
Interestingly.. consider what is DD damage though before we state everything is DD.

What survives ground zero? Does a reinforced concrete building even partially survive? Would some giant hulk of metal?

Has anything ever survived a ground zero nuclear detonation? Now think of something a couple of magnitudes stronger...

If you're actually inside the fireball, or within a few hundred yards but exposed, you're toast. There's just no way to protect against the heat even if you're shielded from the radiation the vehicle will cook through.

A reinforced concrete building like a bunker might well survive if the walls are thick enough and usually they're some 6-8m underground as well, but most above-surface buildings just aren't built strongly enough to take a direct or near hit, what with doors, windows, corridors etc accessible to the outside. Some of the structure might still stand, but it would have been cooked and scoured.

A bunker doesn't suffer from the heat problem as much as a vehicle because the ground below and around it acts as a heat sink, while a vehicle generally doesn't have enough contact with the ground for that to work and is small enough that it just doesn't have enough mass to have a high enough heat capacity to soak it up. Bunker busters are bombs and missiles, some of them nuclear, that are reinforced and designed to detonate after penetrating many meters into the ground. Even a near miss by such a warhead can trash a bunker, or nearby parts of it, due to the shockwave.

If you're near ground zero, but e.g. in an underpass, in an underground car park, the other side of a big building, etc and also in a tough vehicle or battle dress, you've got at least a chance. Also most detonations aren't at the surface. You get more bang for your buck overall from an air burst tens or hundreds of meters above the surface with the fireball maybe only just touching the ground. Surface detonations are much more destructive in the immediate vicinity, everything in the fireball is just powder and ash, but the overall are of effect beyond that is very much reduced because much of the energy is deflected up into the air by the ground.

Simon Hibbs
 
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