Pimp my Cimmerian

[ander]

My PC (name is Caern) is a Cimmerian, an ex-merc running from a vengeful noble and in search of a better cause. He has a STR of 20 and good CON and DEX (dice were running hot that day) and is currently LV 2, with 2 Soldier levels.

Caern has just made LV 3. His feats currently include 2 Weap (free for class), Power Attack, Fighting Madness, cleave. For 3rd LV and following, my "development plan" is as follows:

3rd LV: Barbarian 1st LV: Track, Versatility, Fearless, Toughness (3rd LV feat), Imp Init (favoured class bonus)
4th LV: Barbarian 2nd LV: Crimson Mist, Bite Sword
5th LV: Soldier 3rd LV
6th LV: Soldier 4th Lv: Improved 2 Weap, Greater Cleave (soldier bonus feat)
7th LV: Soldier 5th LV
8th LV: Soldier 6th LV: Stunning attack (soldier bonus feat)

Caern's fighting style is broadsword-in-your-gut-and-buckler-in-your-face, and with his high STR he is quite effective; he has good penetration too, especially when using Fighting Madness. Note that the buckler is light, and therefore he has no penalties when two-handing, except for losing his Parry Bonus, of course; plus the buckler allows Stunning attacks.

The largest improvement comes at 6th LV, where he jumps from 2 attacks per round to 4 attacks per round when using both hands, plus the Cleave extra attacks when I get them.

I am thinking of taking the two Barbarian levels mostly for RP reasons, b/c my PC is currently quite disgusted with "civil" lands and enjoys the return to a more primitive lifestyle... Though that will not last, as he recognizes the advantage of a more cohesive fighting and advanced combat techniques.

So, comments? What would you do differently? Any other suggested feats for sword-bash types?

 

[Trodax]

Looks pretty good to me.

Just some random thoughts...

I guess you could skip Great Cleave; if you're mostly using one-handed weapons I don't think you'll use it all that often.

If you plan to be mostly a soldier (and never become a level 7 barbarian), you could get Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization for your broadsword. However, I actually think it's better to skip that so you're more versatile. There's nothing preventing Caern from picking up a big two-handed weapon if he needs it (in which case Great Cleave actually might come in handy!), and in Conan it can often be good to be able to fight in more than one way.

Maybe you could try to squeeze in Improved Unarmed Strike so that you can use Stunning Attack effectively even when you don't have your buckler at hand.

You might want to think about getting the 3rd level of barbarian, because then both your dodge and your parry go up. Don't know if that's worth it , though.

 

[SnowDog]

From strictly mechanical point of view I can't comment but I have a vague memory of reading something about getting levels in barbarian and nomad classes. I think you had to be born in that kind of culture (obviously Cimmerians are barbarians so it wouldn't be a problem but somehow I understood that the character's first class should reflect that as well, in this case barbarian). In addition to that there was mentioned that you can take levels in those classes if you spend a considerable time "going native". So if your character heads back home for some time then maybe it is enough to be able to get that barbarian class level.

Note: I am not bashing your character idea or anything. Just something I remembered reading and that you might want to consider (if I am right)

 

[ander]

Tordax: yeah, I will considering dropping Great Cleave in favour of Imp Unarm Strike, it's an idea and I had my doubts as well; I guess I will see how the campaign goes before deciding anyway. Getting a large weapon as well is a good idea, I am planning to do that.
I want to get an even number of barb levels (and therefore soldier levels) in order to have stunning attack at 8th level and not at 9th; the campaign is 10 adventures, 1 lv per adventure, so if I delay getting the stun I will not use it much

Snowdog: well, the DM is fine with my background story, and my reasons for taking both barb and soldier levels, plus I have a fellow cimmerian barb in the group, so he has no problems with me doing this.

Thanks to both for your comments!

 

[Trodax]

I think you had to be born in that kind of culture (obviously Cimmerians are barbarians so it wouldn't be a problem but somehow I understood that the character's first class should reflect that as well, in this case barbarian). In addition to that there was mentioned that you can take levels in those classes if you spend a considerable time "going native". So if your character heads back home for some time then maybe it is enough to be able to get that barbarian class level.

Yes, the book does say something to this effect. However, I think this stuff is largely up to the GM (except for the Noble class which is a bit stricter). As GM, I would never have a problem with a Cimmerian character picking up a level or two barbarian - it could simply be viewed as him coming to grips with "the barbarian fire in his veins" or whatever.

However, from a strictly power-gaming point of view, Caern would have been better off starting with barbarian at 1st level and then going into soldier (he would have gained more skills, and lost nothing).

 

[Clovenhoof]

Alright, let's see.
I guess this is the first Cimmerian I see that isn't a Barbarian. I'd remedy that. Thoose favoured class feats are too good to pass on, IMHO.

Besides, the Uncanny Dodge and Mobility chains are so very useful. Drawback is you cannot specialize in any particular weapon. Here are all the feats you cannot take or lose if you have more than 6 Barbarian levels:
Improved Critical, Intricate Swordplay, Weapon Focus, Web of Death, Weapon Specialization, Greater Critical, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization

So if you want any of these feats, limit yourself to 5 or 6 Barb levels.

Then, looking at your current development plan:
- I wouldn't take Toughness. at least not now. You said you have good CON so you probably won't need it. And at the moment, you only get 3 extra HP out of it. At higher levels, it may be an option.
- if you plan to take 5 or 6 levels of Barbarian, take the Dodge and Mobility feats before taking Barb 5. That way, the class feature Mobility will stack up to the incredibly useful Improved Mobility. It won't work the other way round, though, so you need to take the feat first.
- also, if you only take limited Barb levels, you can pimp your main weapon, with feats like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical and the Greater versions thereof. That will eat up a lot of Bonus feats.
- better take Iron Will at some point, maybe at Level 9. Magical threats may become more common these levels. A level 8 Sorcerer may have the Dread Serpent spell, which is a Will Save or Die spell. Also known as the Fighter Killer.
- with some feats to spare, take one or two of the Improved Special Attacks, like Improved Overrun (that's Power Attack based).

EDIT: I just saw you're only going to play until level 10. Well, you should have said that in your entry post.

 

[ander]

Reasons for choosing Soldier:

I am a Parry type rather than a Dodge type;
I am planning to wear heavier armour eventually, so I see him as a Soldier rather than a Barbarian;
Background was more consistant with the Soldier class, and that was the main factor in my decision;
Soldier class is more customizable with the extra feats;
There's another Barbarian in the group.

So, I don't think I will "remedy that" but thanks for the suggestion anyway. I just want the two barb levels for giving him a barb "feel" (all the other PCs and NPCs usually call me barbarian anyway). At least, this is how I am planning it, it might change while adventuring.

So, supposing that I stick to my 2b+8s lv plan, what would you suggest? Clovenhoof, I will consider your idea of taking toughness later, thanks for mentioning it!

 

[SnowDog]

Again, just an answer to taking levels at barbarian class only later on. If it's cool with your GM, rest of your group and better suits your character consept then that's cool to me 8)

Maybe it is like coming to grips with his culture (like it was already mentioned) after ending up as an enemy with a civilized noble?

 

[rgrove0172]

Please dont take this as criticism, its just a personal observation but I find it hard to relate to such "Development Plans" where the growth and progression of a character becomes almost a mathmatical exercise in what will benefit him in a certain perspective best.

In our game characters develop based on their experiences in life and quite often they dont have a great deal of control over that. I suppose my players could give you a very vague notion of what they hope their character will accomplish in life - such as

Aquilonian Noble - "I plan to return home someday and right the wrongs done to my family under that uncouth barbar now squatting on the throne"

Aesir Barbarian - "I want to see the world, taste of its wine and stain my blade in glory!"

.... but none of them could hope to prepare a plan such as you have as they dont know whats going to happen next. Perhaps they will serve as soldiers somewhere, or rob tombs as a thief in Stygia. Maybe they'll find themselves at sea, or locked up in the petty squables of the Khorajan court. Their adventures will determine what skills they develop and how their character changes so they cant predict to this degree of accuracy.

 

[ander]

rgrove: indeed, you're right that it should be skill/feats reflecting the PCs experiences, that's why I am choosing a class that follows better the vision I have of my PC; the feat tree I am planning is only an idea: shuold I be blessed with, for example, finding the legendary greatsword of so and so and receiving the quest of slaying the giant of so and so, my ideas would likely change

 

[ander]

> Maybe it is like coming to grips with his culture (like it was already mentioned) after ending up as an enemy with a civilized noble?

that, and he was disgusted at being ordered to partake in the massacre of a defenseless small town full of women and children (he was a merc at the time)

 

[SnowDog]

> Maybe it is like coming to grips with his culture (like it was already mentioned) after ending up as an enemy with a civilized noble?

that, and he was disgusted at being ordered to partake in the massacre of a defenseless small town full of women and children (he was a merc at the time)

Sounds good to me.

 

[Clovenhoof]

rgrove, we already found out in another thread that you and your group have a quite different idea about character development than the norm. Most players plan their characters ahead. If they have to change their plans for some reason or other, that's one thing (and can happen quite often), but hardly anyone who knows the system will start the game with a "let's see what comes of it" approach.

 

[Trodax]

I'm sorry if this is slightly derailing the thread...

.... but none of them could hope to prepare a plan such as you have as they dont know whats going to happen next. Perhaps they will serve as soldiers somewhere, or rob tombs as a thief in Stygia. Maybe they'll find themselves at sea, or locked up in the petty squables of the Khorajan court. Their adventures will determine what skills they develop and how their character changes so they cant predict to this degree of accuracy.

I absolutely see your point of view on character advancement, rgrove. After all, you do get the feeling that this exactly the way Conan advanced over the course of his adventures; an adventure in Arenjun - a level of thief it is; hook up with Belit - add some pirate; fighting for the Turanians - throw in some soldier; sit your ass on the throne of Aquilonia - noble, baby!!!

However, I think there is a problem in keping strictly to this in the RPG, and that is the fact that you almost always have a group of characters, rather than a lone hero. If the adventures determine advancement to a large extent, the characters will probably become quite similar, and it's usually more fun (IMO) to have a diverse group. Also, some players do like to plan ahead a little bit for their characters.

For these reasons, I'm not very strict on how my players advance, and if they want to plan ahead, I pretty much let them do that. Of course, I might object if someone suddenly wanted to become a pirate in a game based entirely in a desert environment. But I wouldn't actually mind if a character who was a pirate to begin with kept on advancing in that class, and I'd definitely not force everyone to pick up a level of soldier just because they'd been adventuring as mercenaries for the last couple of months. It might not be totally realistic, but I think it's more fun and usually quite easiy to come up with some way to justify it in-game.

 

[ander]

No problem, it's an interesting discussion anyway.

But, just to ask another question more "in-rule" rather than "in-role", does anybody know of any good feat for shield-bashers in the Conan supplements? I just have the basic manual.

 

[Trodax]

But, just to ask another question more "in-rule" rather than "in-role", does anybody know of any good feat for shield-bashers in the Conan supplements? I just have the basic manual.

Sorry; I'm not sure about the other books as I only use feats from the core book (not a big fan of trillions of feats). Someone else will probably help you on that.

However, I'll note that you could very well represent this style of fighting with Improved Overrun (knocking people to the ground).

 

[ander]

Uhm. That's a good idea, by the way. I rather like it & I'll think about it.

 

[argo]

I also suggest you drop Great Cleave, without the massive damage of a two-handed weapon you will rarely see any use out of it. Cleave can stay though, that is always a good feat for a melee fighter.

Regarding your question for shield-bashing. You can use the Two Weapon Defense feat with a off-hand shield bash. However that requires you to give up your highest attack with the off hand, which means it will be useless to you before your get ITWF and of marginal value even after that.

I would be worried about your damage output. TWF thrives on bonus damage, such as sneak attack or Weapon Specilization. You seem to want Power Attack as your source of generating bonus damage, but PA doesn't work with a light weapon (your buckler) meaning you will take the penalty to hit from PA on all your off-hand attacks but get no bonus damage. Maybe you can convince your GM to house-rule a 1-1 PA for light weapons?

Toughness is never a bad choice for a feat, however if you already intend to shoot for heavy armor and have a good Con score you may want to use the feat for something else. Since I see that you already want to shoot for Stunning attack (a very cool feat) how about this....
3rd - replace Toughness with Improved Unarmed Strike
6th - replace Great Cleave with Improved Grapple
... After that I'm not sure if you will qualify for Crushing Grip by 9th level as IDHMBAW and I don't recall the prereqs off hand.

The advangate of taking up the grapple feat chain is versatility. When facing many opponents/lightly armored opponents/mook squad you can use your TWF and Cleave to maximize your attacks-per-round against soft targets. When facing a single well-armored opponent (who you would have trouble penetrating his armor with a one-handed weapon) you can instead drop the sword and grapple him (touch attack against a guy in heavy armor). Your very good Str and full BAB should make you a fearsome grappler. Also it is a good trick against sorcorers or anyone who you may want to take alive/prevent from fleeing. So this build would give you some tactical flexibility.

Hope that helps.

 

[ander]

Two Weps Def is a no go, I will use 2 weps for attacking, if I need to defend I will use the shield in a normal way and keep attacking anyway, else I will flee I am not planning to use power attack unless I use a 2h weapon, which I am going to buy soon (a polearm), so don't worry about the buckler etc. I also took PA b/c I needed it to get cleave.

I am not that worried about enemies in armour actually... A STR of 20 will go a long way with penetration AND damage, though I guess I have not enough experience in this game to speak. Though personally I don't like unarmed combat, you gave me several good ideas, I'll work on them. I will also discuss our options with the other fighter of the group, we might want to coordinate our choices somehow.

Thanks again!

 

[Clovenhoof]

I think the sword&buckler is a nice concept, maybe it's not the most effective one out there (in Conan RAW the most effective style is Bardiche or Greatsword, no contest), but it's classic and can certainly work.
Combat in Conan is mainly about forcing Massive Damage saves. So you should think about how to best generate 20+ points of damage with a one-handed weapon. The answer that won't hurt your off-hand is extending the threat range. In short, Improved Critical: Broadsword.

Since you only play 10 levels, you are of course a bit restricted when it comes to feat optimization. Since you want to take Stunning Attack at 8, you can take Improved Crit at 9 or 10 (depending if you want to take Iron Will and when).
Then you'll have a 20% crit chance with the Broadsword, in this event increasing the damage to 2d10+12 (assuming you pump Str to 22+, which you definitely should). So that's a good chance (but not surefire) to exceed the MDT.
(Warsword would be even better, but you'd have to cram in the Exotic feat some time earlier.)