A
Archer
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Gnarsh said:
Shoot a dragon with a poisoned arrow so that you do not have to enter melee with it?
Shoot a dragon with a poisoned arrow so that you do not have to enter melee with it?
Archer said:
When I said "bladesharp", I mean any of the three identical spells that do the same thing, but on different kinds of weapons. If we're talking about missile weapons, then speedart is the relevant spell. 6 points of speedart on an arrow would have the same effect as pierce6 (assuming AP>6. If less, then it's more effective). And speedart will also reduce your targets chance to parry or dodge (which is arguably more valuable then increasing chance to hit like bladesharp and bludgeon do).
I suppose technically there is one benefit to pierce, but it's pretty questionable. You can cast it on arrows *and* bladed melee weapons (and I suppose spears as well, although we've always ruled that bladesharp works on them, but perhaps not so in MRQ). So I suppose you could say that pierce will be useful in a larger number of situations. I'm really not sure if that benefit makes up for the disadvantages though.
Actually, that sorta brings up some "odd" stacking issues with the spells as they are. So if I use a blunt weapon, I can only cast bludgeon on it. If I have a pointy weapon (arrows, spears), I can only cast pierce on it. But if I have a sword or axe type weapon, I can cast both bladesharp *and* pierce on it at the same time...
Although on the other side of the coin. Fireblade doesn't actually say in the description that it can only be cast on a "bladed weapon", but says it can't be stacked with bladesharp. So can we stack it with bludgeon? So my flaming mace-o-doom can be double stacked?
Lots of those descriptions should really be far more defined. For instance, every spell that affects a "type" of weapon should just list the types of weapons it works on. They went through the trouble of putting them down in the equipment list and applying skill types to them. Seems like a good way to figure this out. Also, some weapons are unclear as to whether they are 1h or 2h. For swords and axes and maces, this is spelled out. But are all "spears" 1H? What about polearms? And if the answer to the first is yes, and the second no, then does that mean that a Halberd is 2 handed when used as a polearm, 2 handed when used as a 2h axe (duh!), but only one handed when used as a spear?
Heh. Just tossing out strange inconsistencies and fun errors. Don't mind me...
To me, the "overcome" means that, in the case of magical armor, the pierce only works if the pierce is higher than the magical armor.
My read (D=Damage, P=PenMagnitude, M=Magical Armor, W=Worn Physical Armor, A=M+W)
D2 P2 v M2 W2 : 2 Hits (Magic overcome, Worn thus reduced)
D6 P2 v M3 W2 : 1 hit (Magic not overcome, so spell fizzles, d6-A5= 1hp
D3 P3 vs m1 W4: 2 hits (Magic overcome, worn reduced) D3- (W4-P3)=D3-(1)=2 hits
My read (D=Damage, P=PenMagnitude, M=Magical Armor, W=Worn Physical Armor, A=M+W)
D2 P2 v M2 W2 : 2 Hits (Magic overcome, Worn thus reduced)
D6 P2 v M3 W2 : 1 hit (Magic not overcome, so spell fizzles, d6-A5= 1hp
D3 P3 vs m1 W4: 2 hits (Magic overcome, worn reduced) D3- (W4-P3)=D3-(1)=2 hits
AKAramis said:
That process doesn't match any other process used in the game though, and makes pierce even less powerful (and it's already considered less useful/powerful then the other weapon enhancing spells).
I really think people are just overthinking this. Add up worn and magic armor. Subtract 1 from that total for each point in pierce. That's the remaining APs against the remaining damage of the weapon. It's just that simple.
I'm really starting to suspect that the ruleset is suffering from "too many cooks in the kitchen" syndrom. I think what happened is that they started with a simple writeup, then someone thought "that's not clear enough", and proceeded to futher confuse things by adding extra language to the description. I suspect that they didn't want people to think that magic armor was just ignored entirely, but normal armor was subtracted. The reason is that they used the word "bypassed", when talking about magic armor, which some might interpret as it bypassing the magical part of the armor entirely. Thus, they added the "although it must still overcome it", presumably to clarify that you had to have more points of pierce then you had of magical APs to "bypass" the magical armor.
It's a classic case of an unclear bit of language becoming more unclear after someone tried to "fix" it. In my experience, when a rule isn't clear, don't try to add an extra sentence or two to it to clarify it. Erase it and re-write it so it's completely clear.
ie: "It allows the damage of the target weapon to ignore some or all of the armor points of a struck location. For each level of magnitude in the spell, one armor point of the struck location will be ignored by the weapon damage regardless of the type of armor points involved. If the magnitude of the spell is less then that of the total armor points, and the armor points being ignored are of different types, the <attacker|defender> may choose which armor points are ignored by the damage."
That's a very complete and hopefully clear description of the spell. I've even added a rule to cover cases where some weapon damage types may be more or less effective against different types of armor (perhaps some attacks require magical protection for instance).
Nyhotep said:
Depends of how big the tower is and what sor of protection it provides. Pointing out (sorry, bad pun) a situation where one character is incapable of hurting the other doesn't do much for Pierce's effectiveness. If it protects the archer completely from the guy on the ground, then it doesn;''n matter if the archer has Pierce or not. He might just as well drop rocks without any magical enchancements at all.
If the guy on the ground can shoot back, then Bladesharp is still superior. You are aware that you can use Bladesharp on any weapon with an edge, including spears, javelins, and arrows?
It just ususally wasn't considered at smart tactic to put a +20%/+4 damage weapon into the hands (chest, abdomen) of the enemy, as he, or his allies, might decide to return your weapon to you.
simonh said:
I agree. I can only see one advantage that Piece has. It's dyuration. THat would allow a forewarned archer to cast a few more and "stock up" on enchanted arrows before a fight. Or it could allow a sniper to cast the spell and then sneak for a few minutes, or even hold his fire to wait for a clear shot.
It's still a one shot (sorry, sorry, unintential pun) spell though.
atgxtg said:
I don't ever rememebr bladesharp being usable on missile weapons, but I don't have the rules handy. This seems ambiguous in MRQ. Some arrows could be said to have blades, but others only have points.
Roman pila (javelins) were designed with a soft metal shaft just behind the head, sepcificaly designed to buckle on impact. This prevented the weapon being used by the enemy. You could probably do something similar with arrows if this became a problem.
Simon Hibbs
simonh said:
Javelins. RQ2 used an example with bladesharp cast on a spear. So you could cast it on a javelin or Pilum and throw it for full effect. Bladesharp might be useablefor a broadhead arrow. Bludegeon is certainly good for sling stones.
simonh said:
Two common tactics historically were to use barbed arrows or to loosly attack the arrow heads so that they would come off when the shaft was pulled out. THis required that the arrows be Pushed through the victim.
But in general, it is a good idea to keep you hands on you enchanted weapons.
atgxtg said:simonh said:
Uh, yeah.
I misread the duration for that one. You can hold speedart now.
That would seem to confrim Pierce's status as a second rate spell. But, if it is all you got, it's your best spell.
It says that it is cast on a missle weapon rather than the actual missle itself, but still as written you can pre-cast it any time on your bow and your first shot will be speedarted even if it is weeks later.
Rurik said:
It's nowhere near that clear
It says the weapon must have a point or edge. Bows and crossbows don't have points or edges, so clearly you can't cast it on them. I never even considerd the possibility you didn't cast it on the ammunition when reading the book, and I'm not realy prepared to consider it now.
I think you're projecting a narrow definition of 'weapon' on to the game that isn't there. Arrows are clearly weapons, by any reasonable definition.
Simon Hibbs
simonh said:Rurik said:
It's nowhere near that clear
It says the weapon must have a point or edge. Bows and crossbows don't have points or edges, so clearly you can't cast it on them. I never even considerd the possibility you didn't cast it on the ammunition when reading the book, and I'm not realy prepared to consider it now.
I think you're projecting a narrow definition of 'weapon' on to the game that isn't there. Arrows are clearly weapons, by any reasonable definition.
Simon Hibbs
The bit about edged or pointed weapon is from Bladesharp, not Speedart.
I had always considered bows, crossbows, slings, etc missle weapons, and arrows, bolts, stones, etc as missles or ammunition.
Howerver my interpretation was based on the SRD wording. The rules gives examples of arrow, javelin, knife, or rock. So you do cast it on the projectile.
Which is even worse. Now you can speedart all your arrows in downtime and they will stay enchanted indefinately until fired.
Note multimissle has a duration and the text explicitly states the weapon is must be used within the duration or the spell expires. There is no diration trait to speedart.
simonh said:Rurik said:
It's nowhere near that clear
It says the weapon must have a point or edge. Bows and crossbows don't have points or edges, so clearly you can't cast it on them. I never even considerd the possibility you didn't cast it on the ammunition when reading the book, and I'm not realy prepared to consider it now.
I think you're projecting a narrow definition of 'weapon' on to the game that isn't there. Arrows are clearly weapons, by any reasonable definition.
Simon Hibbs
I think is is just a case of vague or innacuate wording. According to the weapon chart, a longbow can impale. :shock:
THat must be one sharp bow! :wink:
Hey! According to the description Speedart's effects vary with Magnitude, but the spell is not Progressive!
I suspect that it was supposed to get a duraction too. I for one would have a problem with a character loading up a dozen arrows with SPeedart 6 any carrying them around for weeks and months.
