Phaser-G Kill Zone discussion
- Thread starter SneakyPete
- Start date
Lincolnlog
Mongoose
Nerroth said:
The ACTA game engine works well for Scifi, since scifi is extremely abstract. It absolutely stinks as a historical game engine. D6 works for WoTC WWII toy box roll on die to see who wins the game and walks away. Modern warefare including WWII requires die that can be adjusted.
Naval Thunder is the minimum standard for WWII naval wargame.
The system doees work very well for SFU, I wish they would stick to what they are good at!
If he has run up to you (by which I assume you mean gatling killzone) why would he use a gatling, when he could use the 2 ph1s. The gatling is far more useful shooting you and the Ph1s are more likely to kill the Pl-F without overkill.
Given that you kept a pl-F back presumebly means that yuo did not have as much punch with your main Plasma launch. All you are doing is swapping 2AD in turn 1 for 2AD in turn 2, at best you are merely delaying 2AD damage you could already have done, at worst you are not doing 2AD damage that you could have done by overloading his defenses in the main launch.
Wanting to use phasers and a single PlF also means that your ability to engage in Power drains becomes a lot more resrtricted (all you can do is take the 6" move option). Being move limited is bad, if you have launched in the previous turn (as it sounds like you probably are talking about) then you are already fairly close, and don't want him going past you where you struggle to turn to face.
If you are already close then you may find that he can get out of the arc of the Pl-F and you won't get to use it.
I was thinking about the Gorn vs escort matchup last night/this morning. In the context of what Matthew said about replicating results of FC/SFB, I double checked his statement, and it was indeed 2 ships meeting up that should produce similar results (rather than 2 fleets meeting up, which might make more sense for this game). I'm not sure about SFB, but in FC a Gorn BC vs a Fed CLE is going to be a win every time for the Gorn. It can ripple the plasma over the turns forcing the escort to run or use gatlings defending itself. The Fed drones are not a great issue for the gorn, drones being readily avoided in FC. That leaves the Gorn with a phaser advantage, better shields and more bulk. The escort is not going to win that in a month of sundays, it might take quite a few turns but the Gorn will wear down the escort.
In ACTA, however, I couldn't see how to get that end result of winning all the time (or at least close to). I shuffled around counters trying to work it out. The escort is in for a hard fight, but so is the Gorn. If the escort goes head to head then he takes the plasma strike at some point, he will hurt a lot if the Gorn has moved last and avoided the gatling centerline. What hurts the Gorn in that matchup from my play around is that turn mode 6" makes it hard to stop the escort skirting around and getting to a point that the Gorn can't keep his plasma bearing, especially with terrain lying around. Once he is in that position then the Gorns only real possibility appeared to be risking the HET, but that only works if he moves last (first and the escort just goes back past him). If he doesn't HET then with phasers getting diverted to anti-drone duty he will get outshot (and he will if he doesn't shoot drones). If he fails the HET he suffers even worse. It is still far from a clear escort victory, as always in ACTA the randomness of a couple of 50/50 rolls will have a large effect, and terrain may also have quite an effect. However, it seemed like the escort actually had a half decent chance. That sounds OK until you realise that it neither replicates the result it is supposed to, and more importantly, within the context of ACTA itself, one ship is almost half the cost of the other.
Lincolnlog
Mongoose
Hey, I was replying to a previous post in this thread.... Sorry I got in your way. Since you obviously haven't beat this dead horse enough.
Have a nice day! 8)
Have a nice day! 8)
Gentlemen,
If you wish to communicate with Steve Cole, you will need to do it via email or our BBS. He does not come to this forum.
Slamming people who come to ACTASF with a knowledge of how SFU games work is not productive, in my opinion. The results of ACTASF must mirror the SFU games. Furthermore, if you want to get people to play ACTASF, then welcoming players moving toward your game is productive. If you want them to take their ideas and a healthy debate away (and possibly drive new players away from ACTASF), then constantly telling them they aren't welcome to express ideas is a good way to do that.
I suggest that unless you are a moderator or Matthew Sprange, constantly harping on telling people that they are off-topic and to get the heck out of a topic is not the wisest idea. Matthew is very responsive to emails -- if you feel someone is out of line, then just email him and alert him to the situation. He's perfectly capable of handling a "situation" on the forum.
Jean
If you wish to communicate with Steve Cole, you will need to do it via email or our BBS. He does not come to this forum.
Slamming people who come to ACTASF with a knowledge of how SFU games work is not productive, in my opinion. The results of ACTASF must mirror the SFU games. Furthermore, if you want to get people to play ACTASF, then welcoming players moving toward your game is productive. If you want them to take their ideas and a healthy debate away (and possibly drive new players away from ACTASF), then constantly telling them they aren't welcome to express ideas is a good way to do that.
I suggest that unless you are a moderator or Matthew Sprange, constantly harping on telling people that they are off-topic and to get the heck out of a topic is not the wisest idea. Matthew is very responsive to emails -- if you feel someone is out of line, then just email him and alert him to the situation. He's perfectly capable of handling a "situation" on the forum.
Jean
Lincolnlog
Mongoose
Jean,
No hard feelings on my part to Markdawg, I'm a big boy, so don't need Steve's or Matthew's protection. I probably should not have waited a week after the original Nerroth post to reply, but I just saw it today. The reference to ACTA translation to various settings was, in my opinion on target at least it was a week ago.
All of the comments on here about Phaser-G have been good and valid. It just seems like it's already been beat to mush. How much playtesting has been done? That doesn't mean I'm opposed or offended if others continue to discuss the subject. I reply and add my comments when something stikes my fancy.
I reply about VaS was opinion in support of ACTA as an SFU engine and against it as a VaS engine. So, I will now back up and allow the Phaser-G discussion continue.
Bob
No hard feelings on my part to Markdawg, I'm a big boy, so don't need Steve's or Matthew's protection. I probably should not have waited a week after the original Nerroth post to reply, but I just saw it today. The reference to ACTA translation to various settings was, in my opinion on target at least it was a week ago.
All of the comments on here about Phaser-G have been good and valid. It just seems like it's already been beat to mush. How much playtesting has been done? That doesn't mean I'm opposed or offended if others continue to discuss the subject. I reply and add my comments when something stikes my fancy.
I reply about VaS was opinion in support of ACTA as an SFU engine and against it as a VaS engine. So, I will now back up and allow the Phaser-G discussion continue.
Bob
Captain Jonah
Mongoose
Its JEAN :shock:
Run for the Hills before the boots get you :shock:
Anyway back on topic. I am trying this over the weekend:
Escort Battle report 1.
Planet Carbarous 3. A Federation border world in a contested area on the edge of Federation space.
A recent and disastrous seismic event led to massive earthquakes and threatened the lives of tens of thousands of colonists plus the worlds starport which is the supply hub for the entire Federation and Star Fleet operations in this area. Star Fleet engineers were able to stabilise the situation using huge planetary scale Tractors and force fields but in doing so they opened vulnerabilities in the planets data net.
A Romulan spy has reported to his masters that a ship in orbit could use its labs to break into and shut down the data net, this would stop the tractors and shields and spell doom for the starport and colony. With the star port gone all Star Fleet operations in the region would be disrupted due to a lack of supplies.
Please note fleets are not min maxed or exactly point balanced, this is a campaign type scenario not a mathematical exercise in packing the most weapons into the points.
Federation Fleet.
17th National Guard Squadron (The Horseman)
Texas class OCL Wales
Texas class OCL Carolina
Texas class escort OCL Bulwark (replaced with a basic Texas in the alternate fight)
4th Strike Force, 12th Fleet (detached)
Kirov class Battlecruiser New Zealand
Ortega class War Destroyer Barzani
Ortega class War Destroyer Hun Sen
Ortega class War Destroyer escort Spitfire (replaced with a basic DW in the alternate fight)
Romulan House Tal’Havek attack force
Nova Hawk command cruiser Tal’Havek
Firehawk heavy cruiser Faithful servant
Sparrowhawk escort Protector (replaced with a basic Sparrowhawk in the alternate fight)
Skyhawk Destroyer Dagger
Skyhawk Destroyer Poinard
Skyhawk Destroyer Dirk
The Romulan’s need to get a ship within 4” of the world, each turn they start within that range and remain within that range they generate one point per lab to destroying the worlds data net. 10 points are required. Only one ship at a time can hack the net. If it is crippled or destroyed the hack resets to zero. If the data net is hacked the Romulan’s win, if it is not hack the Feds win.
Table set up lengthways. World in the centre. National guard start within 6” of the world. Federation squadron starts within 6” of one long edge, the Romulan attackers start within 6” of the other long edge.
I will make a note of the combats and we will reroll them with non escorts to see what the difference is. I'll set up a heavy escort force game afterwards if there is time.
Run for the Hills before the boots get you :shock:
Anyway back on topic. I am trying this over the weekend:
Escort Battle report 1.
Planet Carbarous 3. A Federation border world in a contested area on the edge of Federation space.
A recent and disastrous seismic event led to massive earthquakes and threatened the lives of tens of thousands of colonists plus the worlds starport which is the supply hub for the entire Federation and Star Fleet operations in this area. Star Fleet engineers were able to stabilise the situation using huge planetary scale Tractors and force fields but in doing so they opened vulnerabilities in the planets data net.
A Romulan spy has reported to his masters that a ship in orbit could use its labs to break into and shut down the data net, this would stop the tractors and shields and spell doom for the starport and colony. With the star port gone all Star Fleet operations in the region would be disrupted due to a lack of supplies.
Please note fleets are not min maxed or exactly point balanced, this is a campaign type scenario not a mathematical exercise in packing the most weapons into the points.
Federation Fleet.
17th National Guard Squadron (The Horseman)
Texas class OCL Wales
Texas class OCL Carolina
Texas class escort OCL Bulwark (replaced with a basic Texas in the alternate fight)
4th Strike Force, 12th Fleet (detached)
Kirov class Battlecruiser New Zealand
Ortega class War Destroyer Barzani
Ortega class War Destroyer Hun Sen
Ortega class War Destroyer escort Spitfire (replaced with a basic DW in the alternate fight)
Romulan House Tal’Havek attack force
Nova Hawk command cruiser Tal’Havek
Firehawk heavy cruiser Faithful servant
Sparrowhawk escort Protector (replaced with a basic Sparrowhawk in the alternate fight)
Skyhawk Destroyer Dagger
Skyhawk Destroyer Poinard
Skyhawk Destroyer Dirk
The Romulan’s need to get a ship within 4” of the world, each turn they start within that range and remain within that range they generate one point per lab to destroying the worlds data net. 10 points are required. Only one ship at a time can hack the net. If it is crippled or destroyed the hack resets to zero. If the data net is hacked the Romulan’s win, if it is not hack the Feds win.
Table set up lengthways. World in the centre. National guard start within 6” of the world. Federation squadron starts within 6” of one long edge, the Romulan attackers start within 6” of the other long edge.
I will make a note of the combats and we will reroll them with non escorts to see what the difference is. I'll set up a heavy escort force game afterwards if there is time.
I find the current trend for this debate interesting.
I recall the hub-bub over drones. "OP because of their LONG range, because you cannot close the distance in this game, etc..."
Now it's "Phaser-G's OP" because it is so easy to get into PB range with these...
So apparently it is too hard to stay at long range with Ph-G's, but far too easy with drones? Are ship speeds with each weapon system so different?
I suppose this makes Drone ships with Ph-G ships beyond OP?
I think once the initial "OMG new weapon is OP" fever has died down after some play, and perhaps new tactics are developed, it won't be as bad as one may think. There is always a counter for every weapon system. Always.
I recall the hub-bub over drones. "OP because of their LONG range, because you cannot close the distance in this game, etc..."
Now it's "Phaser-G's OP" because it is so easy to get into PB range with these...
So apparently it is too hard to stay at long range with Ph-G's, but far too easy with drones? Are ship speeds with each weapon system so different?
I suppose this makes Drone ships with Ph-G ships beyond OP?
I think once the initial "OMG new weapon is OP" fever has died down after some play, and perhaps new tactics are developed, it won't be as bad as one may think. There is always a counter for every weapon system. Always.
Keeper Nilbog
Mongoose
Totally agree with the 'new weapon' issue, but having watched a gatling reduce an S Type plasma to basic gas, i still have concerns - though it's actually 'phaser/plasma interaction' (off topic, sorry) that i have an issue with, not the Gatling itself (hydran's were ALWAYS nasty close-up)
Captain Jonah
Mongoose
Well lets see Rerednaw.
Rules just released. OMG drones with huge range and unlimited ability to concentrate fire were OP.
100s of posts and topics.
Last few months since 3 ship limit and roll to target over 16", number of topics and posts that drones are underpowered:
Erm none that I can remember.
So maybe all of us players going on about a problem actually knew what we were talking about.
In terms of the Phaser G:
At point blank range a Phaser G should be nasty, twice as nasty as a Phaser 1 in fact.
They are not, they can be four times as nasty. A Phaser one in Kill zone has a potential 2 damage. A Phaser G in kill zone has a potential 8 damage.
Yes we are banging on about this, we could forget about it and wait a few months then have to completely rewrite the Hydran fleet once we get an avalanche of “Oh My God the Hyrdan’s are Overpowered at short range” cries. Or go through the same process with the LDR. Or wait till the 4 Phaser G ships roll in and really start the screams of OP.
I would rather that Phaser Gs were balanced now so that we are not being trapped by escort limits which hit everyone just because the Feds can murder people up close. They have just been bought it. Let us balance them for use in ACTA-SF, not SFB/FC but in the rules where they are being used here.
Rules just released. OMG drones with huge range and unlimited ability to concentrate fire were OP.
100s of posts and topics.
Last few months since 3 ship limit and roll to target over 16", number of topics and posts that drones are underpowered:
Erm none that I can remember.
So maybe all of us players going on about a problem actually knew what we were talking about.
In terms of the Phaser G:
At point blank range a Phaser G should be nasty, twice as nasty as a Phaser 1 in fact.
They are not, they can be four times as nasty. A Phaser one in Kill zone has a potential 2 damage. A Phaser G in kill zone has a potential 8 damage.
Yes we are banging on about this, we could forget about it and wait a few months then have to completely rewrite the Hydran fleet once we get an avalanche of “Oh My God the Hyrdan’s are Overpowered at short range” cries. Or go through the same process with the LDR. Or wait till the 4 Phaser G ships roll in and really start the screams of OP.
I would rather that Phaser Gs were balanced now so that we are not being trapped by escort limits which hit everyone just because the Feds can murder people up close. They have just been bought it. Let us balance them for use in ACTA-SF, not SFB/FC but in the rules where they are being used here.
SneakyPete
Mongoose
After several games my experience is that if Phaser-G equipped escorts are played as limited supplements to a task force they are not overpowering, although the Fed escorts* are very much better than any other races escort ships and I would be hard pressed to spend my points choosing escorts for the other races.
If CLE's and DWD's are used offensively and in numbers they are virtually unstoppable (For which their is no rule saying they can not be used in that manner). Launching 4 drones each a turn which uses up the enemies defensive fire they are nearly immune to return fire with auto IDF and good shields against the occasional long range phaser shots that may be targeted at them. They are also very maneuverable and thus able to get in close in advantageous position with excellent phaser coverage against enemy drones and plasma until the point where they can use the Phaser-G to devastating effect. At 110-130 points a ship the firepower is staggering. With their low cost they also get Initiative sink generally.
*(Orion Phaser-G supplements also make the Light Raider quite devastating in numbers as well, which is unfortunate, as even before that upgrade I have never even come close to losing a battle with that race, using either max drone equipped Salvagers, massed all phaser Light Raiders, or a mix of both, even when I was minus 10 percent and the enemy plus 10 percent points)
If CLE's and DWD's are used offensively and in numbers they are virtually unstoppable (For which their is no rule saying they can not be used in that manner). Launching 4 drones each a turn which uses up the enemies defensive fire they are nearly immune to return fire with auto IDF and good shields against the occasional long range phaser shots that may be targeted at them. They are also very maneuverable and thus able to get in close in advantageous position with excellent phaser coverage against enemy drones and plasma until the point where they can use the Phaser-G to devastating effect. At 110-130 points a ship the firepower is staggering. With their low cost they also get Initiative sink generally.
*(Orion Phaser-G supplements also make the Light Raider quite devastating in numbers as well, which is unfortunate, as even before that upgrade I have never even come close to losing a battle with that race, using either max drone equipped Salvagers, massed all phaser Light Raiders, or a mix of both, even when I was minus 10 percent and the enemy plus 10 percent points)
SneakyPete
Mongoose
My mistake sorry, I have not played my Feds since October, and when you are playing Orions it feels like everyone has an initiative bonus when you are -1. 
(previous post corrected)
Thanks for correcting me.
(previous post corrected)Thanks for correcting me.
