Passenger Staterooms: Single Travellers vs Couples

[Sigtrygg]

GURPS Traveller went down the detail everything route - I hated it.

 

[boggo2300]

GURPS Traveller went down the detail everything route - I hated it.

I restricted myself to it's fluff books and ignored all the rules.

 

[MasterGwydion]

To quote an old designer at GW, what you leave out is just as important as what you put in. Put another way, defining a Major Race does not mean we should ever attempt to classify every Minor Race. I didn't say we should not define anything, merely that we absolutely not try to define everything.

That is a big difference.



Think this through for a moment. What would the alternative be?

That Free Trader price almost certainly is not universal. It is instead a convenience, a short hand if you will, that gets us 'close enough' without having to bog players and Referees down in the minutiae of starship pricing across Charted Space.

One, it doesn't say that in the books. Two, I use all prices in the books as the base prices which are then affected by "local conditions" whatever those happen to be. That doesn't mean, don't put those prices in the books.

And here is the problem - if we did want to get into those particular weeds, think of the page count to take all those variables into account, all the extra work it puts on the Referee to enact them, and how much the players are simply not interested because they just want to buy their new ship and start adventuring.

Then why have life support at all? Make it all part of the maintenance costs and then it is even simpler. Or just make the mortgage payment and your life support and your maintenance is already included. Why have things like life support costs if you do not wish to define what they are?

There absolutely are Traveller fans out there who want to see this stuff - and we can likely count them on two hands. This is something we often have to push back on with writers who sometimes have a tendency to create a simulation when they are, in fact, writing for a game.

At the end of the day, this is what it comes down to. Traveller has to be a game that is played by many, many different groups. So,. a Free Trader costs MCr46.242. The Referee can plonk around with that figure if there are obvious circumstances that crop up during his campaign, but otherwise the primary function here is for players to know how much a Free Trader costs, buy it, and then get on with that night's session.

We can add to that, but we have to be so careful not to bog the game down, and the Core Rulebook is certainly not the place to do it.

To paraphrase a very wise Vulcan, rules are the beginning of wisdom, not the end.

Then why have maintenance costs or fuel costs at all? Why not just let players fly around in their ship with no limits? Now I see why you all are looking at a Wealth Stat. This is the reason I quit playing the newer editions of D&D, they became too generic. It is also why I have never enjoyed GURPS except to mine for cool ideas.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I restricted myself to it's fluff books and ignored all the rules.

I did the same with GURPS, stole the fluff and ignored the rules which didn't mesh well with Traveller anyhow.

 

[boggo2300]

I did the same with GURPS, stole the fluff and ignored the rules which didn't mesh well with Traveller anyhow.

GURPS was way too crunchy for any genre in my experience, but they did do excellent fluff

 

[swordtart]

I tend to use a 25% supplement for Double(or multiple) Occupancy (it is only costing the captain an extra Cr500 per passenger per fortnight after all) and apply it across the board for staterooms. The basic passage of a shared middle stateroom is one example of how to do it, but there is also Barracks and doss down in engineering as alternatives.

If want to have 4 people in your middle stateroom then fine (it is the same level of Dtons per person as barracks), but you will get 1 staterooms worth of attention from the steward, not 4 persons worth of attention (though the odd gratuity might get you some extra attention) and you are all sharing that fresher and that small baggage allowance. It will cost you 1.75 times the cost of a single.

You can double occupancy High you all get the better food, but you share the 1DTon cargo. Normally it will be limited to a couple as they are used to living in each others pockets. A High or Luxury stateroom (in high guard terms) would allow more space (or extra family members). HG doesn't mention it but there could easily be a premium charged (which the sample pdf indicates). Key would be covering the additional life support and maintenance, but it should be noted that the basic 1KCr/person seems to apply whatever standard of accommodation you occupy.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Then why have life support at all? Make it all part of the maintenance costs and then it is even simpler. Or just make the mortgage payment and your life support and your maintenance is already included. Why have things like life support costs if you do not wish to define what they are?

I could support this. The life support cost as a separate line item really adds nothing and, as this discussion has proven, makes things more confusing.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I tend to use a 25% supplement for Double Occupancy (it is only costing the captain an extra Cr500 per passenger per fortnight after all) and apply it across the board for staterooms. The basic passage of a shared middle stateroom is one example of how to do it, but there is also Barracks and doss down in engineering as alternatives.

If want to have 4 people in your middle stateroom then fine (it is the same level of Dtons per person as barracks), but you will get 1 staterooms worth of attention from the steward, not 4 persons worth of attention (though the odd gratuity might get you some extra attention) and you are all sharing that fresher. It will cost you 1.75 times the cost of a single.

You can double occupancy High you all get the better food, but you share the 1DTon cargo. Normally it will be limited to a couple as they are used to living in each others pockets. A High or Luxury stateroom (in high guard terms) would allow more space (or extra family members). HG doesn't mention it but there could easily be a premium charged (which the sample pdf inidcates). Key would be covering the additional life support and maintenance, but it should be noted that the basic 1KCr/person seems to apply whatever standard of accommodation you occupy.

That is why I say that the life support per person cannot be for food. The price doesn't go up if you are in High or Luxury Staterooms. It does raise the life support cost per stateroom though.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I could support this. The life support cost as a separate line item really adds nothing and, as this discussion has proven, makes things more confusing.

I would be fine with scrapping it entirely.

 

[Terry Mixon]

This is the take on the rules as written that I've decided to use for cruises. Paired staterooms with adjoining doors. One is for sleeping and has a bed large enough for a couple. The other stateroom is configured as living area. If there are children, they can sleep in the living area. Fees as standard per stateroom.

Poof! Crowding/double occupancy mess goes away. The default life support costs in the design process also cover the expected occupancy and the ref can change that if rug rats are along for the ride.

 

[Terry Mixon]

And because I need to design a ship (because I wanted to ) I present the reworked King Richard Roger Luxury Liner. I made it J4 by default, but then wanted to see how it worked with higher jump numbers. Here are J4, J5, and J6 for your amusement. Interestingly, the J6 version is the most profitable both due to the high ticket prices and the exclusively luxury accommodations.

The King Richard Roger-Class luxury liner comes equipped to transport 330 passengers in the lap of luxury. Their every need is seen to by an exquisitely trained staff that waits on them hand and foot. The ship is always packed full, and the waiting list is months long for every ship. As it mainly hosts couples and families, the staterooms are sold in pairs: one for sleeping and one for living. That allows beds of a size for two people while kids can sleep in the main room. Generating MCr33.157 per four-week maintenance period balanced against MCr17.651 in expenses, it is quite lucrative to operate so long as the staterooms are full.

J4:



J5:

The King Richard Roger-Class luxury liner comes equipped to transport 190 passengers in the lap of luxury. Their every need is seen to by an exquisitely trained staff that waits on them hand and foot. The ship is always packed full, and the waiting list is months long for every ship. As it mainly hosts couples and families, the staterooms are sold in pairs: one for sleeping and one for living. That allows beds of a size for two people while kids can sleep in the main room. Generating MCr33.693 per four-week maintenance period balanced against MCr17.145 in expenses, it is quite lucrative to operate so long as the staterooms are full.




J6:

The King Richard Roger-Class J6 Luxury Liner comes equipped to transport 54 passengers in the lap of luxury. Their every need is seen to by an exquisitely trained staff that waits on them hand and foot, with one steward assigned to each person. As it mainly hosts couples and families, the staterooms are sold in pairs: one for sleeping and one for living. That allows beds of a size for two people while kids can sleep in the main room. The ship is always packed full, and the waiting list is months long for every ship. Generating MCr38.547 per four-week maintenance period balanced against MCr16.444 in expenses, it is quite lucrative to operate so long as the staterooms are full.

 

[phavoc]

There has been a lot of discussion about staterooms and one of the things that stuck out to me while I was designing a luxury liner is that the rules say single occupancy staterooms are the rule except for exploration ships, company ships, and the military.

That’s interesting to me because I was curious enough to look up how many people that take cruises are single vs being part of a couple. The answer was pretty lopsided here on Earth with only about 5% of people on a cruise being single and traveling alone.

I’m inclined to say things would likely be similar on the spaceways of Charted Space.

What do you think? Would couples go double occupancy middle or one step up to get more space with a double occupancy high stateroom? I’m sure some brave souls would pinch centicredits and go with a middle double.

How would lines handle this? A two jump middle double is KCr30 and a high double is twice that at KCr60. Psychology will play a roll but I suspect must people would go cheap and spend time out of the cabin.

In any case, single occupancy might be what the rules specify as what passengers want (and I suppose a couple could take two middle singles) but that seems unlikely.

How do you all see this playing out?

I think your challenge here is comparing ships crews vs passengers - and these two things are not at all the same thing. Even crew quarters on passenger ships are not as nice as the lowest-class passenger cabin that is inboard without a window.

The book rules have you designing universal cabins that are (generally) meant for ships crews. I've always disagreed with the notion that a Free Trader could ever lure a High Passage passenger (or even the original subsidized liner).

For me I established different sized cabins for passengers, from the "lowly" basic cabin for 2 that is the same as a crew, up to sumptuous suites that have multiple rooms, large fresher areas, and living areas separate from the bedrooms. But rather than try to set the size, I set the opulence level in credits and the cost is CrXX per Dton. That gave me the flexibility to design much larger suites (including yachts) without hamstringing myself to a specific size. This makes a lot of sense when you compare tiny 200 Dton yachts with larger ones in the 1,000 Dton range (or greater).

The nice thing is that we have real-world examples to draw upon for these types of things - from passenger liners to yachts to even shuttles. There WILL be the 1% people in Traveller who have far more resources than they can spend, and you can believe that they WILL travel in opulence around systems and between the stars.

But I heartily recommend that you step outside the book rules because they are wholly inadequate to answering your questions.

 

[Vormaerin]

Add to all that, we really don't want to limit Referees in their own creation of Charted Space. This is why we don't superdetail every world in our sector books, however desirable that may be to some (and I get that, I really do). We have to leave room for Referees to manoeuvre, and this goes for systems and processes, as well as places and events.

I very much agree with this. I heaped a lot of praise on Borderlands for its detailed world design and would like to see more products like this, but that is because exemplars of that kind of thing are super helpful in conveying what GMs can do with Traveller. Just like Beltstrike (for single systems) and Tarsus (For single worlds) in CT. You wouldn't want every world done like that (or even most). Leastwise, I wouldn't.

But an array of products along those lines helps spark GM imaginations with possibilities, as well as gives those GMs who want to play in an entirely pre-written area something to do.

 

[phavoc]

And because I need to design a ship (because I wanted to ) I present the reworked King Richard Luxury Liner. I made it J4 by default, but then wanted to see how it worked with higher jump numbers. Here are J4, J5, and J6 for your amusement. Interestingly, the J6 version is the most profitable both due to the high ticket prices and the exclusively luxury accommodations.

The King Richard-Class luxury liner comes equipped to transport 330 passengers in the lap of luxury. Their every need is seen to by an exquisitely trained staff that waits on them hand and foot. The ship is always packed full, and the waiting list is months long for every ship. As it mainly hosts couples and families, the staterooms are sold in pairs: one for sleeping and one for living. That allows beds of a size for two people while kids can sleep in the main room. Generating MCr33.157 per four-week maintenance period balanced against MCr17.651 in expenses, it is quite lucrative to operate so long as the staterooms are full.

J4:

View attachment 4829View attachment 4830

J5:

The King Richard-Class luxury liner comes equipped to transport 190 passengers in the lap of luxury. Their every need is seen to by an exquisitely trained staff that waits on them hand and foot. The ship is always packed full, and the waiting list is months long for every ship. As it mainly hosts couples and families, the staterooms are sold in pairs: one for sleeping and one for living. That allows beds of a size for two people while kids can sleep in the main room. Generating MCr33.693 per four-week maintenance period balanced against MCr17.145 in expenses, it is quite lucrative to operate so long as the staterooms are full.

View attachment 4831View attachment 4832


J6:

The King Richard-Class J6 Luxury Liner comes equipped to transport 54 passengers in the lap of luxury. Their every need is seen to by an exquisitely trained staff that waits on them hand and foot, with one steward assigned to each person. As it mainly hosts couples and families, the staterooms are sold in pairs: one for sleeping and one for living. That allows beds of a size for two people while kids can sleep in the main room. The ship is always packed full, and the waiting list is months long for every ship. Generating MCr38.547 per four-week maintenance period balanced against MCr16.444 in expenses, it is quite lucrative to operate so long as the staterooms are full.

View attachment 4833View attachment 4834

Wasn't there a King Richard in the old FASA supplements? I'd have to dig out my PDFs, but I vaguely recall them having a luxury liner that (I think) even had fighters onboard for extra security.

Does anyone else recall that?

 

[Arkathan]

FASA
CT-F DPM-1
ISCV King Richard
5000 tons

 

[Terry Mixon]

Wasn't there a King Richard in the old FASA supplements? I'd have to dig out my PDFs, but I vaguely recall them having a luxury liner that (I think) even had fighters onboard for extra security.

Does anyone else recall that?

I roughly based my J4 design on it. I don't recall if it had fighters.

 

[Terry Mixon]

FASA
CT-F DPM-1
ISCV King Richard
5000 tons

Like I said, it was a starting point for me. I should probably change the name to avoid confusion.

 

[ottarrus]

The movement of trade [be that goods, currency, or information] has always been an IMTU decision. Every sandbox needs a 'market town' just like every sandbox needs a trade route and a high threat zone to 'adventure' in. The X-mail routes, J-1 mains, Population, TLs and trade codes tell you where those trade centers are most likely to be, but if a referee wants to change any of that they're perfectly within their rights to do so.

The biggest decision about this stuff is really how trade goods disperse into the surrounding worlds anyway.

 

[Arkathan]

Like I said, it was a starting point for me. I should probably change the name to avoid confusion.

Hey, I was just answering @phavoc.
How many Constitutions or Enterprises have there been?

 

[Arkathan]

I roughly based my J4 design on it. I don't recall if it had fighters.

Description says 2 shuttles, but I didn't read past the preview.
I only own the first 3 Adventure class and the starport hotel