Passenger Staterooms: Single Travellers vs Couples

[boggo2300]

There really is no way for a small business to work for passenger liner transport, or cruises within the rules, Tramp freighters taking passengers on their freight runs is the only way it's going to work without a largeish company behind you, and the Free/Far trader filling up it's staterooms with passengers as it hauls cargo between systems is the only sensible way for small concerns to make money (just like it was prior to air travel becoming common on Earth) which is something far better suited to a bunch of players, so much so that I suspect it was originally intentional...

 

[Condottiere]

In theory, First Class pays for the flight.

Business Class is net profit.

Economy takes up spare capacity.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Maybe you're trying to make a small business model work for a big business or government situation?

Yes, this.

You cannot extrapolate the rules written for Travellers on their 90 year old falling apart far trader, and scale them up to liner companies. As with trading, the big boys play by different rules. The rules (as they stand) are designed to reflect how Travellers might approach things, not how the galactic economy works.

Something to look at with the new Merchant Prince.

 

[ottarrus]

OK, skipping the airliner analogies this is the way that I see travel working in the OTU:
- Tramp traders and Subsidized Traders get you to the travel hubs. For most folks on outlaying worlds, their business takes them hub A and B ports, and their outbound flight ends there. These staterooms are of uniform size, so the 'luxury' of High Passage is the care and service of the Steward's attention. Additionally, there may be stateroom features that are enabled by a High Passage ticket. Examples of this might be enabling walls and ceilings to project environments, or entertainment programs, higher quality entertainment programs or library data access, etc.

- Liners /Cruise Ships are the same thing. Aboard these, Middle Passage staterooms stay the same size, but they have significantly more room to roam about in. High Passage staterooms are likely larger, better appointed, and there is likely a floor waiter taking care room service. Many features aboard the liner are available to the Middle passenger for an additional cost, but are gratis to the High passenger. Pool access, theater /live show seats, etc.

The difference here is that Free /Subsidized Trader's fly passengers with a reason to travel... 'business passengers' for lack of a better term. It's understood that amenities and services are somewhat limited because of space constraints. Liners passengers may be traveling on business, but they've decided to travel luxuriously and in any event liners are geared towards the journey being as noteworthy as the destination.

 

[Condottiere]

You actually have to know traffic flows.

If interstellar travel is considered a luxury, prices are as much as the market will bear.

 

[paltrysum]

The rules are good for regular passage, but there needs to be more and different rules for liners, particularly ones on an established route.

The Singularity Sourcebook provides some guidance as you've seen with new rules for Luxury Passage, soliciting passengers, etc., as you've pointed out above. Singularity Act 1: Sylean Dream provides more colour, including established cruise routes, junkets and spurs. Coming soon!

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yes, this.

You cannot extrapolate the rules written for Travellers on their 90 year old falling apart far trader, and scale them up to liner companies. As with trading, the big boys play by different rules. The rules (as they stand) are designed to reflect how Travellers might approach things, not how the galactic economy works.

Something to look at with the new Merchant Prince.

The rules @Terry Mixon quoted say that the 16,000Cr per parsec travelled is the "Liner-rate" Not the Tramp Trader rate. So, which is it? Is that written just for Tramps or as it actually says in the book, a "Liner rate"?

This seems to be a continuation of the problem with the stateroom discussion.

I had a huge, big post, but no one cares. The rules don't matter and as I have learned in the last 2 days, @MongooseMatt is either frustrated or just doesn't care. I worldbuild. It is what I do. Traveller doesn't want worldbuilders from what I can see. I can use Pirates of Drinax as an example. How many rules did Gareth have to just make up to write that campaign? That is what I mean, when I say that Traveller in general and Mongoose in particular have no interest in worldbuilders. Even the new Worldbuilder's Handbook is basically just random roll charts and formulas for randomly rolling stuff up, but nothing that really tells Me how a world functions. None of the material that has been put out supports people who flesh out their worlds. No consistent examples exist, so inferences can't be drawn to cover what is not in the rules. Not even on a simple question like, I want to send My custom,15-ton "minibus", crated up a few systems over with the regular freight traffic, not on a Tramp Trader. What is the price? Where can I look to even find a guideline on how something like that would be priced? You can't. Such things do not exist.

At this point, I am not sure that I would even buy Merchant Prince. I bought the WBH and it had almost nothing that I can actually use to worldbuild. I was hoping for a World Tamer's Handbook type thing. Most likely Merchant Prince would just do the same thing over again. I buy the book and still can't make an actual "Merchant Prince" happen, because a "Merchant Prince" is not a tramp trader anymore than the fat, 50-year-old, third-hand used-car salesman is Henry Ford.

 

[MongooseMatt]

None of the material that has been put out supports people who flesh out their worlds.

The problem with this (and Mr Miller would agree with me here) is that once you define such a system, everyone will have a tendency to conform to and replicate it - and that is so against the core principle of Traveller. We will go into the detail you are looking for, but it will be on a world-by-world basis, specifically because every world is different and we have no wish to say 'this is how it is, throughout Charted Space'.

This is why we sometimes seem hesitant to come down on one side of a discussion or another and say 'this is how it is'. In some cases, that will indeed be how it is... in others it will be very, very different.

This is why I would be very leary of, for example, an Imperium-wide (let alone Charted Space-wide!) per parsec liner rate. That just cannot exist, even less so than in our own world - there are just too many variables covering demand, populations, TLs, wars and rebellions, corporate interests... and that is before we get to differences in the actual liners, which are massive (just think about hull sizes and jump ranges for a start).

Cr16000 per parsec could absolutely work in some areas of Charted Space... and it would be very wrong in others.

Add to all that, we really don't want to limit Referees in their own creation of Charted Space. This is why we don't superdetail every world in our sector books, however desirable that may be to some (and I get that, I really do). We have to leave room for Referees to manoeuvre, and this goes for systems and processes, as well as places and events.

All that said, please keep in mind that we do read discussions like this, and make notes as we do. Something may 'click' at some point... we just ask that you stay aware that Charted Space, as a universe, needs to butter many slices of bread. In other cases, points you raise may well be on the cards for us to tackle... we have just not got round to them yet.

 

[Condottiere]

I guess I'll have to establish ORIONSPACE, and see how ticket prices develop.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Yes, this.

You cannot extrapolate the rules written for Travellers on their 90 year old falling apart far trader, and scale them up to liner companies. As with trading, the big boys play by different rules. The rules (as they stand) are designed to reflect how Travellers might approach things, not how the galactic economy works.

Something to look at with the new Merchant Prince.

Please do. Trying to figure out how things work for the bigger boys to use them in game is hard.

 

[Terry Mixon]

The Singularity Sourcebook provides some guidance as you've seen with new rules for Luxury Passage, soliciting passengers, etc., as you've pointed out above. Singularity Act 1: Sylean Dream provides more colour, including established cruise routes, junkets and spurs. Coming soon!

I am so looking forward to this. Do you discuss in it anywhere whether the clientele skew more to couples sharing a room? If not, would you hazard a guess? I start the game when Act 1 drops for supporters and this aspect has me wondering how to handle it.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Please do. Trying to figure out how things work for the bigger boys to use them in game is hard.

The problem here is that, while I agree it would be a very interesting exercise, only you and three other guys would actually use it

As always, never say never, but we would need a solid reason to actually put this into the game (again, Merchant Prince might be that reason).

 

[swordtart]

The use of words in that sample pdf made me wince. We have an established nomenclature for the types of Passage in the game, High Medium and Low. Introducing Luxury is fine, but the use of High in a different context (and assigned a different price bracket) seems unnecessarily confusing.

But sticking with the CRB definitions, you can still travel with a companion using the normal staterooms if the ship has moveable bulkheads. Those two Standard staterooms can have a connecting door that is locked when each is rented out singly and unlocked when a couple rent side-by-side accommodation. Just move the beds into one of them and have the other as a lounge area and you don't need to do anything else. More advanced ships might have entire walls that can be removed, but having a separate sleeping compartment makes sense.

1KCr for the cargo means the price difference is more about the treatment you get (eating at the captains table, entertainment at food). These are all soft upgrades that require more attention not more costs in consumables (though extra staff costs need to be considered).

Of course once the Safetee-Pro line of low berths by MixCorp came out, the bottom dropped out of stateroom passenger travel market anyway.

 

[Terry Mixon]

The use of words in that sample pdf made me wince. We have an established nomenclature for the types of Passage in the game, High Medium and Low. Introducing Luxury is fine, but the use of High in a different context (and assigned a different price bracket) seems unnecessarily confusing.

But sticking with the CRB definitions, you can still travel with a companion using the normal staterooms if the ship has moveable bulkheads. Those two Standard staterooms can have a connecting door that is locked when each is rented out singly and unlocked when a couple rent side-by-side accommodation. Just move the beds into one of them and have the other as a lounge area and you don't need to do anything else. More advanced ships might have entire walls that can be removed, but having a separate sleeping compartment makes sense.

1KCr for the cargo means the price difference is more about the treatment you get (eating at the captains table, entertainment at food). These are all soft upgrades that require more attention not more costs in consumables (though extra staff costs need to be considered).

Of course once the Safetee-Pro line of low berths by MixCorp came out, the bottom dropped out of stateroom passenger travel market anyway.

I was thinking about adjoining rooms. I could probably work with that though I’m still pondering it. Thanks for making it clearer in my mind.

 

[boggo2300]

The problem here is that, while I agree it would be a very interesting exercise, only you and three other guys would actually use it

As always, never say never, but we would need a solid reason to actually put this into the game (again, Merchant Prince might be that reason).

Considered a side range of related board games? Traveller Monopoly!

 

[paltrysum]

I am so looking forward to this. Do you discuss in it anywhere whether the clientele skew more to couples sharing a room? If not, would you hazard a guess? I start the game when Act 1 drops for supporters and this aspect has me wondering how to handle it.

I leave that to individual Referees. I’m sure you’ve seen the Determine Passengers table. You may determine whether a randomly rolled passenger would bring additional guests, and whether they would share a room or not.

Cost is described as per room and per passenger with additional passengers assigned to the same room (spouses, children, friends) paying an additional 50% of the room rate. The idea being that additional people tax the stewards more, but do not claim additional space aboard the ship.

This could be interpolated down to high passages as well, but I didn’t write it as such. Luxury passages are special, more complicated products.

I’ll drop the hint that there’s a patron encounter that directly deals with a passenger who brings their child aboard. And a precocious child he is!

 

[Terry Mixon]

I leave that to individual Referees. I’m sure you’ve seen the Determine Passengers table. You may determine whether a randomly rolled passenger would bring additional guests, and whether they would share a room or not.

Cost is described as per room and per passenger with additional passengers assigned to the same room (spouses, children, friends) paying an additional 50% of the room rate. The idea being that additional people tax the stewards more, but do not claim additional space aboard the ship.

This could be interpolated down to high passages as well, but I didn’t write it as such. Luxury passages are special, more complicated products.

I’ll drop the hint that there’s a patron encounter that directly deals with a passenger who brings their child aboard. And a precocious child he is!

Someone mentioned adjoining staterooms for couples but I’ve got fold down beds that turn a single bed into a twin bed in my head. Either can work.

While it’s not spelled out and likely won’t be to leave things vague, for my personal games and the ships I design for fun, I’ll likely skew luxury cruise ships to 90%/10% couples/singles unless it’s a singles cruise.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The use of words in that sample pdf made me wince. We have an established nomenclature for the types of Passage in the game, High Medium and Low. Introducing Luxury is fine, but the use of High in a different context (and assigned a different price bracket) seems unnecessarily confusing.

But sticking with the CRB definitions, you can still travel with a companion using the normal staterooms if the ship has moveable bulkheads. Those two Standard staterooms can have a connecting door that is locked when each is rented out singly and unlocked when a couple rent side-by-side accommodation. Just move the beds into one of them and have the other as a lounge area and you don't need to do anything else. More advanced ships might have entire walls that can be removed, but having a separate sleeping compartment makes sense.

1KCr for the cargo means the price difference is more about the treatment you get (eating at the captains table, entertainment at food). These are all soft upgrades that require more attention not more costs in consumables (though extra staff costs need to be considered).

Of course once the Safetee-Pro line of low berths by MixCorp came out, the bottom dropped out of stateroom passenger travel market anyway.

Which brings us back to the question of what is paid for by life support per stateroom and life support per person.

Page 154 of the CRB says,

"Life Support and Supplies: Each stateroom on a ship costs Cr1000 every Maintenance Period. This cost covers supplies for the life support system as well as food and water, although meals at this level will be rather spartan. Each person on board a ship who is not in a low berth will cost an additional Cr1000 every Maintenance Period in life support costs. Each occupied low berth costs Cr100 every Maintenance Period."

Every Middle Stateroom pays 1,000Cr for supplies for the life support system as well as food and water. So, what is the per person cost paying for? If food and water is paid out of the 1,000Cr per stateroom as the book says, then by default, every stateroom is single occupancy, and I have no idea what the other 1,000Cr is for.

The problem with this (and Mr Miller would agree with me here) is that once you define such a system, everyone will have a tendency to conform to and replicate it - and that is so against the core principle of Traveller. We will go into the detail you are looking for, but it will be on a world-by-world basis, specifically because every world is different and we have no wish to say 'this is how it is, throughout Charted Space'.

One, you cannot determine how interstellar trade works on a planet by planet basis, that is the opposite of the definition of interstellar. Two, how is defining things within a setting Anti-Traveller? You all just wrote whole books defining the FFW and yet not once in any of those books did you give as rules for how things work or why things are happening. Jump Drives are rated by how many parsecs that they can travel. M-Drives are rated by how many Gs of acceleration they can put out. The Third Imperium uses the Imperial Credit. Every time you write a book, you define something. Traveller is not a setting, it is a system. If you have no wish to say, "This is how it works in Charted Space", then stay out of Charted Space. Every setting book says how it works within that setting, otherwise it is not a setting book. Why did you publish a Third Imperium book if you didn't want to define anything? Or Clans of the Aslan? Or Imperial Navy? Who founded the 3rd Imperium? What is a Major Race? What does the word Zhodani refer to? Defining things within a game world is literally what you people do for a business.

This is why we sometimes seem hesitant to come down on one side of a discussion or another and say 'this is how it is'. In some cases, that will indeed be how it is... in others it will be very, very different.

This is why I would be very leary of, for example, an Imperium-wide (let alone Charted Space-wide!) per parsec liner rate. That just cannot exist, even less so than in our own world - there are just too many variables covering demand, populations, TLs, wars and rebellions, corporate interests... and that is before we get to differences in the actual liners, which are massive (just think about hull sizes and jump ranges for a start).

This is a BS reason. How much does Refined Fuel cost? How about unrefined fuel? How about the cost of a Low, Middle, or High Passage ticket? These are the same across all of Charted Space, with some minor changes if the Referee feels like it, but that is not in the rules. Price of a Free Trader fresh off of the assembly line? Same price from one end of Charted Space to the other. So, you are being disingenuous by saying prices that are Charted Space-wife cannot exist, when clearly they already do in most things. Base Spec Trade prices exist everywhere also.

 

[MongooseMatt]

You all just wrote whole books defining the FFW and yet not once in any of those books did you give as rules for how things work or why things are happening. Jump Drives are rated by how many parsecs that they can travel. M-Drives are rated by how many Gs of acceleration they can put out. The Third Imperium uses the Imperial Credit. Every time you write a book, you define something. Traveller is not a setting, it is a system. If you have no wish to say, "This is how it works in Charted Space", then stay out of Charted Space. Every setting book says how it works within that setting, otherwise it is not a setting book. Why did you publish a Third Imperium book if you didn't want to define anything? Or Clans of the Aslan? Or Imperial Navy? Who founded the 3rd Imperium? What is a Major Race? What does the word Zhodani refer to? Defining things within a game world is literally what you people do for a business.

To quote an old designer at GW, what you leave out is just as important as what you put in. Put another way, defining a Major Race does not mean we should ever attempt to classify every Minor Race. I didn't say we should not define anything, merely that we absolutely not try to define everything.

That is a big difference.

How much does Refined Fuel cost? How about unrefined fuel? How about the cost of a Low, Middle, or High Passage ticket? These are the same across all of Charted Space, with some minor changes if the Referee feels like it, but that is not in the rules. Price of a Free Trader fresh off of the assembly line? Same price from one end of Charted Space to the other. So, you are being disingenuous by saying prices that are Charted Space-wife cannot exist, when clearly they already do in most things. Base Spec Trade prices exist everywhere also.

Think this through for a moment. What would the alternative be?

That Free Trader price almost certainly is not universal. It is instead a convenience, a short hand if you will, that gets us 'close enough' without having to bog players and Referees down in the minutiae of starship pricing across Charted Space.

And here is the problem - if we did want to get into those particular weeds, think of the page count to take all those variables into account, all the extra work it puts on the Referee to enact them, and how much the players are simply not interested because they just want to buy their new ship and start adventuring.

There absolutely are Traveller fans out there who want to see this stuff - and we can likely count them on two hands. This is something we often have to push back on with writers who sometimes have a tendency to create a simulation when they are, in fact, writing for a game.

At the end of the day, this is what it comes down to. Traveller has to be a game that is played by many, many different groups. So,. a Free Trader costs MCr46.242. The Referee can plonk around with that figure if there are obvious circumstances that crop up during his campaign, but otherwise the primary function here is for players to know how much a Free Trader costs, buy it, and then get on with that night's session.

We can add to that, but we have to be so careful not to bog the game down, and the Core Rulebook is certainly not the place to do it.

To paraphrase a very wise Vulcan, rules are the beginning of wisdom, not the end.

 

[Condottiere]

Actually, a setting planetary/system variant would be the same as (Advanced) Dungeons And Dragons worldbuilding Dark Sun and Dragonlance.

Detailed, and specific.