Passenger charges

[phavoc]

The books have always made it interesting in how they define the difference type of passage.

Low passage is pretty straightforward - yer a corpsicle and you hope you survive the revival process.

Mid-passage, at 8,000cr, seems to the "standard". You get food, not the best but adequate, and a room, not the best, but adequate. I think I would equate mid-passage to the lower-deck rooms on current cruise ships.

High-passage, at 10,000cr, is supposed to be the cream of the crop. Very good food, entertainment and accomodations - all 1st class. On cruise ships today these generally equate to bigger, much nicer and enhanced locations on a cruis ship.

But in Traveller, it seems a Free Trader is able to offer high-passage, but not have to put out any of the additional things that go with the higher rate. They can't really offer a high passenger anything different than mid-passengers get because they don't have the space. Passage aboard non-passenger liners can typically be comfortable, but noboday calls it luxurious. It gets you from point A to point B at Motel 6 prices.

So the question is, should a smaller, non-liner starship be able to charge high-passage rates without making the investment in higher-class cabins, luxuries and paying higher rates for victuals to wine and dine their 1st class passengers?

The recent spate of ship designs and ship economics got me thinking that who would pay these higher rates for meh accomodations? Certainly not someone who had choices to ride in luxury or slum it out aboard a merchanter. And unless the said passengers are heading out to the sticks, I'd think that most people would travel aboard regular liners, unless they were wanting to avoid attention or were in a hurry.

 

[DFW]

You forgot one major aspect. Being waited on hand and foot...

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

The MgT core book seems to suggest that high or mid passage is defined by how much access to the steward (or how many "luxuries" the ship has)you have. A bit doubtful, really. You would expect more space/larger room etc as well. Like you, I doubt whether a standard free trader could charge for high passage.

In addition, I don't really see why some passengers, mainly middle passage, shouldn't be able to share rooms. Seems odd that crew etc can, but not passengers. Yes, it might be a bit cosy, but its only for a week and will be cheaper than high passage.

Egil

 

[far-trader]

Middle vs High Passage. An old question with many answers depending on the era and rule set. I'm still not fully informed on MgT (still have to look stuff up most of the time) but for as close as it is to CT...

First, what is not different. Life support is exactly the same. Quantity and quality of food is not different. Space aboard is exactly the same in function and style. So what is different?

The first, if not biggest, difference is the Steward (1). With the caveat of the note below in mind...

Mid Pax basically have to fend for themselves. Fix their own meals, clean their own dishes. Make up and clean their stateroom. Arrange their own entertainment. Wash their own clothes. Basically they are roughing it with only room and board provided.

High Pax on the other hand have the full time attention of a Steward. A living, breathing, sophont. The Steward will see to their meals (and fare will be better than average for being skilled) and clean up after. The Steward will clean the stateroom and insure clean sheets and towels. The Steward will arrange entertainment, even participating in same. And the Steward will handle the High passenger's laundry. They are NOT roughing it.

(1) except that MgT messed with this with "luxuries", a mistake imo, and one that still doesn't make much sense to me, in game, meta-game sure I see the reasoning but still think it was not really thought out

The second big difference is the included baggage allowance (2).

A High passenger is allowed 1ton (a full dton in the cargo hold) of stuff. This is excess baggage without charge. Which said charge would be Cr1000 (and up). In my opinion this doesn't include reasonable "carry-on" to see them through the week, which is stored in the stateroom. So in reality your High passage has to be calculated at 5tons for revenue purposes, and drops the "real" cost of the High pax ticket to just Cr9000.

A Middle passenger on the other hand is only permitted 100kg (the previously mentioned reasonable "carry-on" to see them through the week). If they have more gear they need or want to bring then they will have to pay extra for it, IF the ship has room for it in the cargo hold.

(2) As an example of my not quite comfortably knowledgeable with MgT yet, they didn't change this too did they? Because if you take away the need for a Steward (as the "luxuries" rule does) and you also take away the 1ton baggage allowance then yes, there is no difference between High and Mid passage imo, except the cost. And I can't see why anyone would pay Cr2000 extra just because you have a vendo machine in the corner of the lounge and a few robo-vacuum cleaners constantly under foot

 

[hdan]

NOTE: edited in light of the other responses written while I was composing this one:

Here's a thought: Since you can substitute luxury fittings for a steward, maybe each ship has a different definition of what "High" means. Knowing the Imperium, there is probably a strict rating system to qualify for High Passage though, and a ship could have its license revoked if it didn't measure up.

A particularly self-important High passenger might abuse this fact to mess with the crew - threaten to report them to the transit authority if they don't perform well above the legal limit.

I would submit that Luxuries can replace levels of Steward BUT at least one Steward-1 is required, even with luxuries. For larger ships, adding 1dton of luxuries will allow High Passengers to forgive less access to the Steward.

I don't recall if MgT keeps the "+1dTon of cargo" perk or not. IMTU it's there though, along with the right to visit the cargo hold to inspect your cargo. (Note that it's not a right to go without an escort - the Captain has discretion on that matter.)

Just thinking out loud here:

The captain has the right to upgrade someone to "High" accommodations at his discretion.

IMTU, Stewards book passengers like Brokers find cargoes, so another way to go might be to have your Steward's skill and reputation modify the "how many high passages?" roll. The Steward could also influence this roll through finding special luxury items or going on Carousing expeditions, using the usual skill assist rules.

 

[far-trader]

In addition, I don't really see why some passengers, mainly middle passage, shouldn't be able to share rooms. Seems odd that crew etc can, but not passengers. Yes, it might be a bit cosy, but its only for a week and will be cheaper than high passage.

Egil

Can crew share staterooms in MgT? Commercial crew I mean, not military. That's another change from CT if so. A not unreasonable one imo, just wondering.

Also, shared passenger stateroom travel has been around (since CT iirc), generally at a small reduction in per person cost (Cr12,000 shared middle and Cr16,000 shared high... iirc, though those might be MTU figures).

 

[DFW]

(2) As an example of my not quite comfortably knowledgeable with MgT yet, they didn't change this too did they? Because if you take away the need for a Steward (as the "luxuries" rule does) and you also take away the 1ton baggage allowance then yes,

The baggage is still the same as CT. I have defined "luxuries" IMU as having a non-sophant steward + extra space & amenities. On small ships this package is required if you want to have a chance of getting "High" passage payments.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Can crew share staterooms in MgT? Commercial crew I mean, not military. That's another change from CT if so. A not unreasonable one imo, just wondering.

It appears so, though I can't see it explicitly written down anyway. Some of the (civilian) designs in Trader and Gunboats don't work otherwise.

And it seems quite reasonable for crew and PCs on their own ship.

To be honest, seems to make sense for middle passangers as well, so, on a J1 trip, and ignoring the cost of stewards and luxuries;

1x high passenger, 6000Cr, -2000Cr life support -1000Cr (1dt cargo) = 3000 Cr
2x mid passengers, 3000Crx2=6000Cr, -3000Cr life support = 3000Cr.

On this basis the high passengers are buying space as well as better stewarding

Egil

 

[DFW]

Can crew share staterooms in MgT? Commercial crew I mean, not military. That's another change from CT if so. A not unreasonable one imo, just wondering.

It appears so, though I can't see it explicitly written down anyway. Some of the (civilian) designs in Trader and Gunboats don't work otherwise.

MRB - "In some starships (especially exploratory vessels, military ships,
and privately-owned starships) staterooms can be double occupied.
No stateroom can contain more than two persons however, as it
would strain the ship’s life support equipment."

 

[phavoc]

I've always assumed that cabins would/could be shared amongst passengers. Which makes the waters a bit muddier because passage is charged per person, not per stateroom. So in theory you might bunk with a complete stranger and save some cash.

Mid Pax basically have to fend for themselves. Fix their own meals, clean their own dishes. Make up and clean their stateroom. Arrange their own entertainment. Wash their own clothes. Basically they are roughing it with only room and board provided.

High Pax on the other hand have the full time attention of a Steward. A living, breathing, sophont. The Steward will see to their meals (and fare will be better than average for being skilled) and clean up after. The Steward will clean the stateroom and insure clean sheets and towels. The Steward will arrange entertainment, even participating in same. And the Steward will handle the High passenger's laundry. They are NOT roughing it.

And yeah, stewards would do more things for high passage, though I don't think you would see the level of middle-passage actions described (responsible for own food, cooking, cleaning, etc.). You are paying for passage, and even at Motel 6 you get maid service. So I think it would be more of a function of having a Steward wait on you at a much higher level than not. At least that has been my experience with cruise ships. Everyone had a steward, just the lower-class ones had more rooms/people sharing the steward than the more expensive suites did.

You really don't want people that you don't know doing things like that aboard your ship. You want to restrict access to crew. Fire bad, just like the stench from someone's version of prime rib might make everyone else puke.

The second big difference is the included baggage allowance (2).

A High passenger is allowed 1ton (a full dton in the cargo hold) of stuff. This is excess baggage without charge. Which said charge would be Cr1000 (and up). In my opinion this doesn't include reasonable "carry-on" to see them through the week, which is stored in the stateroom. So in reality your High passage has to be calculated at 5tons for revenue purposes, and drops the "real" cost of the High pax ticket to just Cr9000.

A Middle passenger on the other hand is only permitted 100kg (the previously mentioned reasonable "carry-on" to see them through the week). If they have more gear they need or want to bring then they will have to pay extra for it, IF the ship has room for it in the cargo hold.

(2) As an example of my not quite comfortably knowledgeable with MgT yet, they didn't change this too did they? Because if you take away the need for a Steward (as the "luxuries" rule does) and you also take away the 1ton baggage allowance then yes, there is no difference between High and Mid passage imo, except the cost. And I can't see why anyone would pay Cr2000 extra just because you have a vendo machine in the corner of the lounge and a few robo-vacuum cleaners constantly under foot

Your price calculation assumes that someone would use their high-passage baggage allowance to engage in trade. Which, is possible, but I don't see people who are supposed to be high-passenger types doing that. They would use that extra baggage for their own luxuries (clothes, etc).

Since most versions of Traveller don't account for mass, then I would assume that ship captains would be 'reasonable' about what a person brought aboard and stuffed in their cabin. So long as there was no danger to the ship,crew or passenger, and any emergency access ports were not blocked, then they can stuff till they drop.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Can crew share staterooms in MgT? Commercial crew I mean, not military. That's another change from CT if so. A not unreasonable one imo, just wondering.

It appears so, though I can't see it explicitly written down anyway. Some of the (civilian) designs in Trader and Gunboats don't work otherwise.

And it seems quite reasonable for crew and PCs on their own ship.

To be honest, seems to make sense for middle passangers as well, so, on a J1 trip, and ignoring the cost of stewards and luxuries;

1x high passenger, 6000Cr, -2000Cr life support -1000Cr (1dt cargo) = 3000 Cr
2x mid passengers, 3000Crx2=6000Cr, -3000Cr life support = 3000Cr.

On this basis the high passengers are buying space as well as better stewarding

Egil

Just to really throw a passing cat at the flying vermin.
1 high passenger, 6Kcr - 2Kcr = 4Kcr income, 5Dtons. Income = Cr800 per Dton
2 Sharing middles, 6Kcr – 3Kcr = 3Kcr income, 4Dtons. Income = Cr750 per Dton.
Cargo. 1Kcr per Dton, no life support. Income = Cr1,000 per Dton
Low passenger. Cr1,000 – Cr100 = Cr900 income. 1/2Dton. Income = Cr1,800 per Dton
There are more low passengers out there anyway. Dump those walking about types and go cargo and freezer pods.....
This doesn’t include the wage cost of the steward or his stateroom and life support, that just makes the awake passengers worse..

 

[DFW]

Just to really throw a passing cat at the flying vermin.
1 high passenger, 6Kcr - 2Kcr = 4Kcr income, 5Dtons. Income = Cr800 per Dton

I believe it is -2Kcr/month not, per jump...

 

[zero]

^ It is.

The same numbers for one month (2 Jumps);

High Passage = 12k -2k = 10k income, 5 dtons. Income = 2k per dton.
Mid Passage (cant share) = 6k - 2k = 4k income, 4dtons. Income = 1k per dton.
Lowberth = 2k -100 = 1,900 income, half a dton = 3.8k per dton.

Lowberths have more income for less space in a J1.

 

[rust]

Well, for my settings I have decided that passages are priced differently
from the standard Traveller rules.

For example, on the one hand a normal passage on one of the main tra-
de routes is less expensive than the same kind of passage on one of the
frontier routes, but on the other hand the free traders on the frontier rou-
tes also offer a much less expensive steerage passage in a bunk room,
used for example by colonists travelling from the core worlds to the fron-
tier. It also replaces the low passage, as I do not use it in my settings.

Only the prices on the main routes are fix, the prices on the frontier are
negotiable and depend a lot on the relations between the ship's owner
and the colonies, or on personal contacts between the ship's owner and
the passenger. For example, to have a free trader captain as a friend or
an ally helps a lot to reduce the passage price.

What I wanted to achieve was to get away from the sterile abstract stan-
dard system, which is only about numbers instead of people and their so-
cial networks and relations. And since my settings usually are small, it is
not difficult to design and use the modifications for the few trade routes
and the comparatively few ships and persons involved.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Just to really throw a passing cat at the flying vermin.
1 high passenger, 6Kcr - 2Kcr = 4Kcr income, 5Dtons. Income = Cr800 per Dton

I believe it is -2Kcr/month not, per jump...

Post in haste, repent in leisure

 

[zero]

As an aside, based on the above numbers I gave, it'd only be good to have staterooms for High Pax, you can have the same profit as Mid by having free costing cargo space. Lowberths and Mail are the highest earners though.
Heres some math for Passages on a J2 ship;

High Pax; 24k - 2k = 22k income, 5 dtons. Income = 4.4k per dton.
Mid Pax; 12k - 2k = 10k income, 4 dtons. Income = 2.5k per dton.
Low Pax; 2.4k -100 = 2.3k income, half a dton = 4.6k per dton.

For a J2 ship, cargo pays least, but Lowberths and Mail are still the biggest profit-bringers. Thats not even considering that for the price of one stateroom you can have 10 lowberths or even having a stateroom's space replaced with 8 lowberths.

TASTY EDIT - For 4dtons, lowberths at J2 bring in 18.4k income, a little less than High Pax, but for the cost of a stateroom, which would bring in 22k income max, you can have 5dtons worth of lowberths which brings in 23k. As both rely on 5dtons anyway, for J2 its best having passenger space devoted to some lowberths.

Also remember rolling half a Carouse or Streetwise effect can bump up the passenger traffic score to fill up the booths (I also homebrew at pax traffic 4-5 that the roll is a mimimum of 2 for Low Pax, because at 3d6-1d6, its possible to get a lower score than scores 2-3, which I dont like).

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Can crew share staterooms in MgT? Commercial crew I mean, not military. That's another change from CT if so. A not unreasonable one imo, just wondering.

It appears so, though I can't see it explicitly written down anyway. Some of the (civilian) designs in Trader and Gunboats don't work otherwise.

MRB - "In some starships (especially exploratory vessels, military ships,
and privately-owned starships) staterooms can be double occupied.
No stateroom can contain more than two persons however, as it
would strain the ship’s life support equipment."

Thanks for finding the quote, DFW.

There is no logical reason why some passengers shouldn't be prepared to double occupy a room.

Egil

 

[DFW]

There is no logical reason why some passengers shouldn't be prepared to double occupy a room.

Egil

I could easily see a mid passenger taking it for a small price break.