P&P playtest reports

[CZuschlag]

I harken back to the old AD&D tournament modules. For example, if you want to run old module A3 (Assault on the Aerie of the Slave Lords) as a tournament you'll find that all the damage is a fixed constant. Everything for damage is pre-rolled.

Why? Well, they decided that they wanted to introduce a control for luck, so they could properly assess the players' skill sets without introducing freak damage rolls into the game.

You COULD argue that that wasn't an AD&D tournament anymore, because damage wasn't being rolled. But it wasn't just a tournament, it was one of the first GenCon AD&D tournaments ever. What they did was control the luck because of the relative importance of the small sample sizes they had to deal with.

Same here. TBS for balancing purposes just makes sense. It stops bad playtesting from hiding behind excessive random elements. That's manufacturing control, that's solid work. The massive spreads in the current beam rolling system allows for large errors in beam balance to look, locally, correctly tuned. They aren't --- let's not kid ourselves.

The only system where very consistent amounts of damage in intrinsically helpful to the ship is the GEG. I don't recommend TBS when firing on the Drakh --- yet (the effect should be very small, but I haven't calculated it yet, so, no promises). I strongly recommend against removing 6,5 and 6,6 results; that does change the critical damage averages and therefore the balance of Precise and so forth.

 

[Greg Smith]

ISA vs Vree, testing short ranged White Stars vs pak'ma'ra plasma web and Vree extraction.

ISA

2 White Stars
2 White Star IIs
3 Blue Stars

League
2 Pak Haliks
2 pak Ikortas
2 Xorr
2 Ximm
1 Vaarl
pak were formed into a single squadron.

Call to Arms, with a scattering of terrain.

Turn one was a cautious approach, with the ISA approaching down one flank. The League kept an asteroid field between them and the approaching enemy.

Turn 2: the ISA fleet poked its nose out around an asteroid field, and a single Vree Xorr saucer used super manoeuvrability to poke its nose out from behind the asteroids the League fleet was shielded by, and get in range of the lead WS. A brave Blue Star came zooming towards this saucer. The BS damaged the saucer, which in turn damaged the White Star. The pak had edged forward enough that the two lead ships could create an energy web near the Blue Star with their forward heavy plasma guns. The Blue star was vaporised.

Turn 3: knowing that they had nothing to lose all of the Vree ships declared ‘Initiate Extraction’ every turn.

This turn got messy. The ISA largely came around the rear of the League fleet, but the Vree ships have no rear. A WS and a BS made a frontal approach, and the rest could head around the back. The Vree saucers all pretty much had WS lined up on them, while two Vree saucers prepared to extract crew.

The WS fired first annihilating one Ximm. The Vree return fire severely damaged a WS, knocking out its weapons. Further Vree fire crippled it. The pak also were in range to catch both a BS and the damaged WS with their plasma web, killing both.

In the end phase, the one Vree saucer close enough to extract crew did so on the crippled Ws, removing 3 – enough to decrew it. Since it was going to run into an asteroid field, the Vree decided not to try and board it.

Turn 4 and 5: the pak squadron could only get a few shots with side plasma webs. One WS was destroyed, and the ISA killed an Ikorta.

Turn 6. The pak were woefully out of position, but with one WS and one BS remaining, the Vree could group three saucers around the remaining ships. Vree fire rained down on the BS, destroying it. The WS dodged almost everything that was thrown at it. However with three Vree saucers in extraction range – it was never going to come out well. 3d6 extraction – 13 crew, much more than the WS had left.

-------
League lost: Ikorta, Ximm; Xorr crippled. Vree extracted 7 crew in total.

VPs: 54.7 vs. 11


White Stars have always had a difficult time with Vree, but this was exceptionally bad. None of the Vree ships had range above 15”.

The Extraction in the last turn would have killed a healthy WS and left it decrewed for capture. Extraction is really, really potent against low crew ships, and makes them ripe for the taking – giving bonus VP for both capture and extraction. I really think this needs to be toned down.

Since I combined both pak and Vree, I think the devastating effects of the effects of either large numbers of emines that the White stars will struggle to avoid or numerous Vree performing extraction, are somewhat diluted.

But I think the VP tally speaks for itself.

[edit: missed a Vaarl from my list]

 

[katadder]

with -3 init against +2 and all the pak in one squadron which I am guessing moved last how did the WSs ever end up in bad arcs to take plasma webs? or how did vree get close enough to use extraction (which I agree is broken). the last league ship/sqn would move after only one WS had moved (which I would keep out of range) allowing 3 WSs to gang up on the hull 4 vree ships and leave the pak alone due to the pak having no rear guns and fairly weak side ones.
basically in this test I dont see how the ISA lost, let alone lost so badly. yes they would not be able to get out of vree arcs but the hull 4 vree ships wiithout interceptors are things the ISA love to kill with pulsars and then add beams in on top.

as I said at the start the extraction rules are broken, these either need a major revamp or need to go or allow a maximum of one crew taken per saucer per turn or something like that.

 

[Greg Smith]

Not everyone plays as perfectly as you do, katadder.

 

[katadder]

not saying perfectly, saying with common sense and not trying to show the current WS in bad light.
you know yourself you could play the ISA alot better than that. there is no way even LBH could lose that badly using the WS fleet against the league fleet you have chosen.

 

[katadder]

An ISA batrep against the brakiri, 5pt raid, standard call to arms scenario.

Fleets:
ISA: 1 WS, 3 WSII, 3 Bluestars
Brakiri: 1 Brokados, 2 Haltona, 4 Brikortas

1st turn ISA was on all ahead full to get in weapons range, Brakiri carriers scrambled whilst haltonas CBD. the brakiri managed to kill a WSII with a runaway beam from a haltona but the ISA had managed to cripple a Haltona as well. Minor damage from falkosis to Bluestars.

2nd turn ISA nials got in to tackle some falkosis but with numbers against them lost 2 for 1 kill. The ISA fleet got behind the brakiri lines whilst the brakiri turned to get side arcs in. Damaged bluestar got crippled by falkosis. WSs killed intact Haltona, Bluestars finished off the crippled one.

3rd Turn. ISA lose last nial and lose the crippled bluestar to falkosis. The ISA manage to kill off an ikorta and heavily damage another with next to no fire from the brakiri ships as side/rear weapons are not upto the job.

4th Turn, falkosis start on the bluestars. ISA kill another Ikorta plus the damaged one.

5th Turn, falkosis continue to nibble away. Bluestars start on the brokardos whilst the WSs kill the last Ikorta.

6th Turn. with just the brokardos and the falkosis left and 3 untouched WSs the Brakiri decides to surrender as the flakosis will not do enough damage in remaining turns to stop the ISA fleet.

Final Vps:
ISA: 40
Brakiri: 13

Overall the WSs perform as the normally do, braving a turn of forward firepower to hit the flanks where even though they had to stay in range of brakiri secondaries these secondaries are not upto much, certainly not enough to threaten the WSs. Falkosis were a problem that the ISA could not deal with but this has always been the ISAs problem, more powerful fighters may have resulted in a differant finish but as it was 1AD per fighter is not enough of a threat.

I expect similar results against pak (although braving plasma webs may be difficult for the bluestars), centauri and anyone else with weak side/rear weapons although the centauri at least can usually get around quicker.

 

[Greg Smith]

Overall the WSs perform as the normally do, .

So do you think the changes to the Whitestars were insufficient?

 

[katadder]

not really. thats how they perform normally for me, I acually use the pulsars of the current version especially against races like brakiri. I am not a sit off at 18" and CBD type of player.
against races that have weak or no rear/side arc the WS wont have changed in its use all that much. its the races where people used to sit at 18"on CBD where the major change will come into force.
I think EA may be differant to play against due to haveing alot of 10" pulse that will have normally been avoided. also having lots of good fighters like EA have will prove more of a challenge.

I also think it created slightly more challenge as not being able to get every single WS onto the 1st haltona means I only crippled instead of killed. with 2 more beams the thing would have died but with range 10 beams not every WS could target it. this is one of the major points which is good about knife fight WSs, they cannot all target the same ship from 18", they have to choose a target and close to the range on it.

 

[Greg Smith]

I am somewhat in agreement. I don't think the problem with the WS is its weapons, but its survivability.

I think the reduction in weapon range has worked too well for races that are capable of fighting the WS - like the Centauri and Vree, but only moderately well for other races such as the Narn and Brakiri.

At this stage, I'm not sure what the solution is, but I'm convinced it ain't the current one.

 

[katadder]

well the weapons shouldnt be increased in range as having to actually choose targets makes WSs require more thought. some people have suggested an extra 2AD on the pulsars. others have suggested slightly more damage, but this would make it tougher for anyone having to use side/rear arcs which is everyone but vree.
I think vree are the only problem for the knife fight WS as everyone elses flank/rear weapons at raid level or lower are not a huge threat.

 

[Ripple]

possibly the Centauri will be an issue as well... hopefully we'll test it tomorrow.

Ripple

 

[Da Boss]

they should be - they have the ships to do it - low level ships to duel with Blue Stars in in sinking and skirmish level ships to hammer WS's plus useful fighters and battle level ships to deal with the rest of the ISA fleet.

Katadder - I was suprised that the Brakiri player did not have at least some Pikatos fighters in all his carriers - may have made all the difference?

 

[Grunvald]

8Pts Raid ISA vs Raiders

ISA (Grunvald)
4 whitestar II
6 Bluestar
4 Nials (additional)
4 Flyers
1 Ashinta-class Heavy Escort (minbari)

Raiders (Funbeast)
6 Modified Freighters (Missile Battery, Afterburner)
4 Strike Carriers (Advanced Fighters, Increased Hanger)
4 Battle Wagon (Missile Battery, Enhanced Targeting)

Played over 4x4 with 2 stella debris generated 1 dust and 1 asteroid density 10 (needles to say we both stayed away)

T1 ISA win INI
Raiders moved 1st basically everythin moved forward carriers Scramble!
Isa Whitestart and ashinta move up behind dust cloud on right, blue stars APTE on left behind and just past asteroid.

ISA no shooting
Raiders battlewagon manages to shoot a bluestar causing 2 pts damage after AA with a crit........It went BOOM!

T2 Raiders win INI
Bluestars come up and around on left into shooting range whjitresars and ashinta move up to front of dustcloud, staying inside.
Raiders moved forward spliting forces nicely in 2 one left one right, mian force of Delta V's going after whitestars and Nial fighters (+flyers) on right

2Whitestarts missed with beam did about third dam to a carrier other 2 crip and skel a battlewagon, the ashinta finishing it off
Delta-vs ganging up on nials and blowing them up 3 dead!
Little bits of damaged paint work on both sides here and there!

T3 ISA win INI
Little moving around from both sides, jockying for position.

2 whitestars kill the damaged carrier
Battlewagon manages to finish off 3 bluestars all of which took at least 2 point of damage in previous turn, after SR begin of turn on 1 dam each.
couple mor nials and flyers die to being ganged up on but quiet a few Deltas die to af.

T4 ISA win INI
Some tactical manouvering around the battle wagon on left with bluestar, whitestars and ashinta moving from left of board to right.
Modified freighters on right moving forward into dust cloud following the surviving carrier and battlewaggon.

Bluestars finish off a battlewagon
Whitestars, with nothing better to shot this turn blow apart 6 delta v's
Ashinta gets lucky shots on battlewagon and does some serious damage.
Bluestar is decrewed.
Nials win some dogfights, 1st in game!

T5 ISA win INI
Carriers and battle wagon on left hold positions
Whitestars and ashinta carry on moving accros and into range of carriers.

Battlewagon kills a whitestar
Some scratching of paint from ISA!

T6 ISA win INI
1 whitestar splits off and attacks the battlewagon.
the other 2 whitestars attempt a high energy turn both fail so do some moving and end up more or less where they where to start with! (pretty pointless SA for the whitestars)
carrier performs ASAP
Freitors on right chace last bluestar!

2 nials kill a damaged battlewagon and explodes killing a nial and delta v +damage to carrier.
2 whitestars kill a carrier.

T7 Raiders win INI (last turn due to time)
Basically some jockying for position.

single whitestar causes battlewagon to drift
ashinta kills a freightor and crips the battlewagon
freightors decrew the last bluestar!
Nials win some dogfights
Battlewagon kills a whitestar (not before it manadged to make 6 out of 8 dodges and only took 1 damage on roll of 1)


RESULT:

Fairly balanced game, some mistakes made on both sides and both with jammy rolls and a lot of abismal rolls especially on some beams rolls.
A lot of crit rolls of engine 1 (-1spd) atleast 10%

Definatley makes the whitestar work a lot harder to get beams into play, and makes them fairer against fleets like raiders who have short ranges. But as usual the ships seem to run out of crew before blowing up
Not quiet reported right but a total of 2 whitestars lost crew and 3 bluestars!

Raiders modifications seem to work quiet nicely
ISA HET SA, not worth it! could get where i wanted with normal movement so what was the point of the SA?

 

[lastbesthope]

there is no way even LBH could lose that badly using the WS fleet against the league fleet you have chosen.

I dunno, I am pretty bad :lol:

LBH

 

[CZuschlag]

Two new playtest reports, one ISA vs. Vree, the other ISA vs. Centauri. I may have errant or selective memory, but Davesaint (the ISA vs. my Centauri) and Ripple (the Vree vs. my ISA in Game II) will correct my oversights.

Centauri in this post, Vree next.

Movement described below is NOT in initiative order.

7 RAID.

We were trying for fleets that you could reasonably expect at a 7 Raid tourney. Unfortunately for the ISA, the standard Centauri Battle-level ship is the Liati, not the Primus....

Centauri:
--- Liati (2 pts)
--- Balvarin (1 pt)
--- Centurion (1 pt)
--- Vorchan
....Maximus (1 pt)
--- Demos
.... Kutai x 2 (1 pt).
-----------------------
.................(7 pts).

ISA:
--- White Star II x 4 (4 pts)
--- White Star I (1 pt)
--- Nolotar
....Blue Star x 2 (1 pt)
--- Nolotar
....Blue Star x 2 (1 pt)
--------------------------
....................(7 pts).


Battlefield is vastly empty.... one irrelevant piece of rock in the corner. (Random rolls, too).

Centauri win set up. ISA forms the 5 WStars together on their left, and, 10" away, the Nolotar's and the BStars on the Right. Deployed are 4 Nials and 2 Fliers. 2 squadrons of WSII's starts.

Centauri set up with the Kutais squadroned and the Maximus squadroned with the Liati. The Liati and Maximus are in the center; the Kutais on the Centauri Right opposite the WS's. The Balvarin just went and hid.

n.B.: >>>> I am realizing now that either I'm miscounting or the Centauri had an extra Corvan. I'll try and figure it out in a bit, but I think I goofed on fight level.

T1: Slow engagement. Blue Stars enter the ISA's center right agressively, some under CBD (yes, they can't fire). A Centurion takes the bait and gets shots at BlueStars with F and P arcs. Kutais close for shots at CBD'ed WS's. WS scout heads to the ISA right to support the BlueStars. All slow from the Centauri side, with Demos fine being under CBD for the Ballistic torpedoes, the Liati wandering looking for only the Advanced Battle Laser to shoot (taking my time against the newly short-ranged ISA). Maximus provides escort. Sentris and one Razik are staging for the Nials and Fliers.

Fire of 1: Blue Stars don't accomplish a great deal, but do strike the Centurion for about 10:10 or so. Centurion gets lucky and kills one BStar with full use of its forward array. Kutais accomplish some, and one gets whacked for 50% of damage for it. Adv. Battle Laser rolls well and damages a WStar.

T2: The ISA right/Centauri left becomes a bit of a scrum as Bluestars run behind the fleet and whip around; however, they won't get shots as their targets will move out of range. Centauri Vorchan-classes move onto Nolotars. Whitestar scout gets a good bead on the Centurion. After some sinking, the Whitestars on the ISA left set up for shots on the Maximus, which is trying to escort its Liati, without success. The Liati does get the the side and with a firing solution on two Whitestars. The other two Whitestars have started the history of getting behind fleet lines, as the rear guard element, the Liati, has gone on the offensive.

Fire of 2: Liati splits fire, damaging both, but killing none, due to an escorting Flier acting as an Interceptor. Combined Centuari fire kills a Nolotar and seriously wounds the other. The Maximus is caught without CBD and killed before it can fire by one WSII squadron. Dogfights start when the ISA send in the first wave, sending 4 Nials and 1 Flier against 5 Sentri, 1 Razik, and the Fleet Carrier trait. Results are predictable; the Centauri get the better of it. What is not predictable is that 2 of 3 dead Sentri are recovered by the Fleet Carrier. The Nolotars, the other WS squadron, and the WS scout badly hammer the Centurion into crippled status; the Centurion, under CBD, does very little in response.

T3: Kutai turn to their left to engage Fliers, who have moved to follow up on the wrecked Centurion. Vorchan class ships are badly outmaneouvered by the WSs and end up without shots. All in all looks fairly bad except for the Liati, which gets a plum assignment and hunts down the WS squadron that it damaged last turn. One Sentri acts as interceptor for the Liati, the rest hang out for a turn. The two Rutarians set up for bombing runs on the WS's. Balvarin and Corvan turn back to the fight, seeing that it has become a bit safer for them.

Fire of 3: Kutai fire on the Bluestars is pointless (even the range 6" guns got a shot). Bluestars respond by blasting one Kutai dead and crippling the other. One WS squadron lights up and cripples a Demos and finishes the Centurion. The Rutarians completely fail. Centauri turn bad until the Liati opens up and vaporizes the two damaged Whitestars. Channelling Keanu Reeves .... Ummm, whoah. Ensuing explosion kills a perfectly legitimate Rutarian. A couple of passing beam shots into the Liati gets to 6:6.

T4: Liati's firepower has fundamentally changed the game. One whitestar and a Bluestar decide to vacate the scene by hunting down the Corvan. Balvarin is nearby and gets shots for most weapons. Vorchan-class pursues. Whitestars and Nolotar follow it, Liati finishes the conga line. Kutai tries for a ram, and fails, one BStar moves to finish it off. Razik and remaining Sentris move to chase lease BStar. Rutarians keep trying.

Fire of 4: Rutarians do minor damage only. Corvan survives strike. Liati speaks again, and uses its turrets on a passing Bluestar instead of a WStar --- WS gets damages, and BStar gets dead. Other BS damages but doesn't kill the Kutai; the Nolotar finishes the task with its turret Beam system (it's been under CBD for a few turns now after seeing what happened to the other one with all the Ion Cannons running about). Bluestar in front is badly damaged between the Balvarin's fire and the fighter strike.

T5 and Fire of 5: Centauri consolidate. The Liati is king of the board, and everyone can see it. ISA put all coins on a 2 Whitestar (last two fresher ones) vs. Liati face-off. Face-off goes nowhere after a Rutarian picks off a -1 AD crit to remove half of the beam dice on one Whitestar. Liati does what they do and badly damages or kills (I don't remember here .. I think it was kills) another Whitestar.

Fighters are now a nightmare for the ISA. Rear arc coverage is almost gone, only the Nolotar's turret guns remain to provide any lasting protection.

Remnants that I remember:

Centauri:
Mostly healthy Liati (12:12 or so) that is scary as all hell
Damaged Vorchan
Healthy Balvarin
Scratched Corvan
Crippled Demos
1 Rutarian, 4 Sentris, 1 Razik

ISA:
Seriously damaged WhiteStar
Healthy WhiteStar Scout
Healthy Bluestar
Badly damaged Bluestar
Nolotar

What I got from this: The Liati is a specialized Whitestar killer that was supposed to kill a Whitestar that no longer exists. It is WAY too good at its job; Liatis change the battle too much. The WS's may have been able to avoid that T-arc accurate Ion Cannon before, but no more. That's a problem. Linking them with escorting Sentris on top of it is just gross.

If it wasn't for the Liati, the Centauri don't win this one. It's because of the Liati that they are in the fight at all. It's still 5 vs. 5. However, the Bluestars are going to have a horrid time with the Rutarian and the Sentri/Raziks, where adaptive means nothing. Next turn, the Liati is going to eliminate one more Whitestar, and there is very little the ISA can do to stop it.

And the fact that I took an extra Skirmish by accident (I think) doesn't help matters either.

Oh yeah, and the Centauri rolled pretty disgustingly well for most of the game. including two 6/(5-6)s unopposed.

My Verdict: This matchup is competitive.

We expected it to be a problem, but the dice favored the Centauri a lot, and it went 4 turns before the result became clear and 5 turns before it ended. If not for the Liati (say, a Dargan), the ISA would have won instead, I have no doubts.

Recommendations: Liati is overbuilt now vs. new ISA. Consider removing Accurate from T Ion Cannons or Plasma Accelerators. Bluestars are tough beyond all reason or logic.

Vree report tomorrow. Hint, and a surprise, the ISA actually won, and the luck was remotely even.

 

[Ripple]

I took over half way through the battle vs the Centauri, couple of corrections...

Centauri fleet -
Liati - 2 pts
Balvarin - 1 pt
Centurion - 1 pt
Vorchan
Maximus - 1pt
Demos x2 - 1 pt
Corvin
Kutai x2 - 1 pt

Ending state for the ISA

Whitestar (healthy), Whitestar (light damage, -1 AD/-2 Spd), Bluestar (badly damaged), Bluestar (healthy)...

Conclusions -
First off is there is no changes coming to the Centauri, it's the whitestar in motion. At least that would be my expectation. I've always thought all those accurate guns on the liati was a bit off given the rps issues, but that's aside. So just conclusions on the short ranged whitestar. Worked just fine for the most part.

Centauri are a tough fight, but I think this particular fleet didn't have enough answer to fighters, and didn't actively use it's Nolotar Escort/fighter combo to full effect, this mattered quite a bit in the end, as the fighters are responsible for the damage to the remaining Bluestar and cutting the Whitestars firepower. I also think Dave went hard for the Centurion too early and should have killed the Demos/Vorchan combo first... he needed to win the sink war earlier.

Overall the whitestar worked just fine. Still holes to exploit, and can weather a turn or two under fire from one of the most heavily armed fleets in the game. Does need an answer to the liati if it's going up against one, but I think that was just a coin toss of whose beams get real first. Fighter cover a bit more solid and things go better, I did fire eight beam dice and hit three times... no crit... luck went all bad in that case.

I'll let Chris throw up the vree fight first.

Ripple

 

[katadder]

the liati does what it supposed to. both WSs and Liati have accurate secondaries so makes for interesting fights between them. the turret isnt twin linked either so always needs standard rolls to hit with no rerolls.
perhaps a WS gunship could have matched off the liati a little bit better and in that size game I would always take one as the extra range helps the ISA.

I think as ISA with 36AD of accurate guns the Liati would have been 1st possible target whenever the chance arose and with 11v8 chances are you could put 3 ships against it.

interesting report though.

 

[CZuschlag]

Vree List:
---- Xonn (2 pts)
---- Xill (1 pt)
---- Xill (1 pt)
---- 2 x Xirr (1 pt)
---- 2x Xeel (1 pt)
---- Varrl
..... 2 x Xaar (1 pt)

ISA List:
---- 3 x WhiteStar II (3 pts)
---- WhiteStar (1 pt)
---- Nolotar
..... 2 x BlueStar (1 pt)
---- 2 x BlueStar
..... Flight of Starfuries (1 pt)
---- Dag'Kar Ally (1 pt)

ISA/Narn win setup and decide to set up first; there is a planet in the middle of the table and a dust cloud in the deployment zone; these two terrain features tempt me to deploy first. The ISA idea (that never gets used) is to use the Nolotar to Maneouver to Shield for the very vulnerable Dag'Kar against the very dangerous Shredders. That doesn't end up working.

The Dag'Kar starts just behind the dust cloud with its escorting Nolotar. All 8 deployed fighters start here as well. 14" behind the planet, about 12-14" away, are the BlueStars and WhiteStars.

What does work is that the Vree deployment is fairly wide and not packed in. I'm worried about that (Ripple thinks the worry is stupid -- he may be right, we disagree). The Xorr and Xills are reasonably close to each other, with the Xills squadroned. The Xeels are on the Vree far left with the Varrl, but they are all far enough from each other to prevent Emining more than one craft at a time. The Xirrs are on the Vree far left, using the planet to screen the Bombardment Xirrs from the Bombardment Dag'Kar.

T1: Varrl moves even further left and forward, and that plus the Xeels
attracts the Bluestars to the ISA right, through the dust cloud. Dag'Kar pokes its head out of the Dust Cloud. Xonn gets a bit gutsy and just floors it, gets into gravity well, and is over 2/3 of the way to the Dag'Kar on turn one. One Xill makes it to the gravity well and gets the Antimatter Cannons in range. The Whitestar Scout has been drawn to the right before, but the 3 WhiteStar IIs go for the Xonn ahead of them. They use the planet to screen them from the other Xill, but the Xirrs get shots on one of the Whitestars. The flier provides escort to the WSII that has Xirr firing on it.

Fire of 1: The three Whitestars kill the Xonn with the help of luck on the precise beams. The ship was set adrift by the first strike. The Vree player thought this would mean the Xonn is dead due to the drifting-planet interaction, but the rule states the crash happens "when the ship moves onto the planet." Ship has already moved onto the planet, so it's safe from that by a strange technicality; drift + gravity well move will eject it safely. However, the rest of the WS's eventually finish it off. WS roll very well on dodges, and one WS II gets damaged by the Xonn, but, very suprisingly, not killed; lots of Antimatter Cannon shots eat great dodge rolls or Flier interceptor rolls; the flier survives most of the fire and intercepted 5 hits. Xonn also went crit-trawling after the first big strike, spreading its damage (such as it was, I rolled great dodges) out. (Dodge+Interception mechanic is VERY powerful!! Because all Vree fire is interceptible and the ISA leverage this plus AA + CBD --- in that order! --- the stacked defenses plus the precise beam and a template weapon may be the ISA answer for the Vree conundrum at Raid and better). The ISA has gotten very lucky so far, but, little does he know that he's used up most all his luck for the rest of the game. One Xill kills about half of the Dag'Kar. The Dag'Kar bombs one Xill and a Xonn to finish the Xonn off. Xeel have launched more Tzymm in addition to the two Xorth already on the board.

T2: More sinking by the 4 Bluestars and the Xeel/Varrl. One Xeel moves to engage and sets off the pileup. Nolotar expects the Xill to mug the Dag'Kar, which stops and begs for mercy, so the Nolotar moves to shield. Xirrs flank the planet, not afraid this turn of the slow-loading Emines, and get good angle shots behind the planet. The Xaars were holding back because of the Emines, but they now floor it, to engage. 2 Whitestar IIs follow a Xirr, and the Whitestar Scout spots a cheap opportunity to get a Xaar. The Xill squadron cross up everyone and instead of going for the Dag'Kar, go behind the planet and get behind the two Whitestar IIs. The last Whitestar II goes behind one of the Xill squadron.

Note at this point -- the Bluestars are almost constantly CAFing at this point. They are also premeasuring very, very carefully where the Vree can go and still Initiate Extraction. Thank goodness this is a SA and not just a fire effect, so I can figure out where the safer bits might be. The battlefield is spread out, too, so I can regularly find places to hide in if I look hard. One extraction likely means Skeleton crew at best, so I have to be so careful it's silly. Without premeasuring the Vree movement, I'm so dead it's not funny.

Also, the Vree have noticed a lot of their ships are one-weaponline ships. This means CBD is off the books; so there is a LOT of Initiate Extraction going on, especially speculatively, to deny Bluestars and Whitestars landing places. Ranges greater than 2" would be absolutely ABUSIVE.

Zorth and Tzymm form up on the Vree center-left. The Starfuries and Nials move to intercept next turn if they win initiative.

Fire of 2: The Xills do their job and kill a Whitestar, something that will become a bit of a running theme; for the next 2 turns, they'll be worth a Raid kill or better every turn. They actually overkill some, but not enough to explode; some fire could have gone at one of the other
Whitestars, but that's only because the WSII lost its dodge trait when it got crippled. That doesn't happen, and the full fire of the other Xill is warranted. WSIIs ding the Xirr and one Xill in pretty underwhelming fire. Dag'Kar Ionics the same Xirr to little effect, but does get a -1 AD. Whitestar Scout kills Xaar with ease. Bluestar with CAF puts a goodsized dent in the Xeel, something they're good for almost all battle long (CAF of 3's, plus hit on 3's for DD is a lot of damage against something that can't CBD). Another Xirr takes some fire, but it doesn't amount to a great deal.

T3: The Xaar/Varrl/Xeel/Bluestar war mounts up. One Xirr uses the gravity well and All Power to engines to zip into the dust cloud where the Dag'Kar is, and it hides in CBD, pointing towards the Tzymm/sqaudron. The Nolotar is now ahead of the Xills, so it's unlikely to get a chance to shield. It really can't when it gets trapped in the gravity well and must move. The Xills see this and jump back across the planet (SM makes gravity wells very easy to use) to get solutions on the fairly doomed Dag'Kar; they drop squadron at this time. Whitestar IIs decide the Xirrs are the next to go and pick them as victims.

Starfuries and Shials initiate dogfights against Tzymm, the Zorths pile in.
Two Tzymm get behind the Whitestar Scout.

Fire of 3: ISA generally wins the dogfights as the numbers in the dogfight are roughly level and the ISA is leading or even in most of the dogfighting thanks to the Starfuries +2 DFR vs. the Tzymm's +1. There are a couple of pushes. Tzymm fire is mostly dodged, misses, or bulkheads; 1:1 gets done to the Whitestar Scout. The doomed Dag'Kar decides to fire the mines before everyone evacuates, damaging a Xill and killing a free-floating Tzymm. Dag'kar goes down hard and explodes as the dust cloud it's in just doesn't generate enough stealth. It explodes all over the Whitestar Scout and a Xirr, barely damaging each (surprisingly!). The other Xill evaporates the Nolotar and sets it ticking like a time bomb. Bluestars keep pounding away at the Xeels. Xeels give up on firing at the Bluestars, which are all but impossible to kill with the over-the-top Dodge of 3+ plus adaptive and self-repair (which really makes it impossible for the Triple-Damage Xirr, who only get 1 point out of each hit at best, and zero after self-repair on a bulkhead). One whitestar is also sent to within a point of crippled. 2 Whitestars accomplish very little aside from killing the last Xaar and continuting to either damage or miss outright the Xirrs --- lots of failed dustcloud 2+ stealth rolls or missed beam shots, slowly making up for the Xorr thing earlier). They do manage to cripple one of the Xirrs, however. Same Xill as before is pounded by the remaining CBDed WS and damage is starting to mount.

T4: Xills break squadron. Damaged Xill heads for the dust cloud and declares Initiate Extraction. This isn't done to actually extract, the Vree intend to use the order to make the dust cloud uninhabitable for the ISA, claiming the stealth advantage for their own, flooding it with Xirr and the like. It works. The Varrl gets there, too, making it a bloody nightmare to target with Stealth 6+. Blue stars continue to hunt Xeel and Varrl (when no other target is available). Premeasuring Initiate Extraction range is becoming essential. Bluestars are almost always going for CAF now. Damage Whitestar CBDs and faces most of the melee, one other uses the dust cloud to shield itself from one of the two Xills. Last undamaged Whitestar lines up for shot on the Xill. Last dogfights are set up by the ISA. The crippled Xirr cannot escape the Nolotar's explosion radius, as it turns out, and dies.

Fire of 4: ISA wins remnant dogfights, finishing off the Tzymm threat. CBDed WS uses beam and tears into the Xill (some luck came back), finally killing it and setting it ticking. The WS behind the dust cloud then kills the other Xirr, but overkills it, exploding it over a Bluestar (no loss), which gets a 1-6 crit (uh-oh). The Vaarl then easily targets the non-dodging Bluestar and eliminates it with the help of a crit. Remaining Bluestars finish off the Xeel they've been pounding for a while. Small fire cripples the damaged Whitestar II, which loses Dodge and AJP.

T5: Had to play this one quickly, as the shop was closing up. The badly damaged Whitestar II tries to run behind the planet, and gets away from the fight for a turn with minimal hits (the planet shields it from the Xill. The Xill didn't go after it because a Bluestar went off as bait into a place where the Xill could Extract on it. We didn't resolve the result of the extraction, but it survived the fire. The ISA missed a TON of stealth checks and CAFs to inflict very little damage on the ISA, so the Varrl and remaining Xeel made it through fine.

Remaining ships:
---- Badly damaged (7:10) Whitestar II without Dodge.
---- Healthy Whitestar (0:2) Whitestar I
---- 2 Untouched Bluestars
---- 1 Damaged Bluestar (2:2) about to get extracted on.
---- 2 Starfuries and a Nial

---- One damaged (9:10 or so) Xill
---- One damaged (40%?) Xeel
---- One barely damaged (3:2) Varrl

The starfuries and Nial will give a Whitestar a couple more turns of interception, which is a big deal. That should be enough to finish off the last Xill. The Bluestars are just impossible to kill, and the last 2 should be enough to finish off the Xeel; the Varrl might be a just avoid-it ship while its' in the dust cloud.

Conclusions: This is a very normal touney-legal build that absolutely works for the ISA against the Vree. The implications of the long-range firepower means that the ISA don't have to go hunt down, the Vree have to come to them, and, hopefully, are spread out enough that nibbling at the edges works for the Whitestars to avoid some return firepower. Terrain actually helped the ISA more than the Vree, something that, in retrospect, isn't surprising in the slightest with the new HET rule allowing the WS to, in some ways, mimic SM.

If you take an all-WS/BS fleet, I think you will, indeed, die to the Vree, hands down. If you take something that can either disrupt formations, or, more importantly, disrupt the range imbalance (Dag'Kar is optimal, but the Shruuta [I think] or Saggitarius should do nicely as well. Pity you can't take the Psicorps Mothership, it'd be perfect. Other higher-priority nominees include Omegas, Shantavi, Kaliva, Marathon and the like), you can win. But, remember to premeasure your opponents moves like a frickin' surveyor, you MUST stay away from the extraction beams at all costs.

If you the Vree can bunker down and you have to come after them, you've lost. If they have to come after you, it's a fight.

 

[Triggy]

Good reports, keep them coming!

It seems the White Star itself certainly needs a little more support than before but is this OK?

Also, I think everyone seems to agree that extraction beams need toning down to make them merely something fun without being their main weapon in any situation.

 

[Greg Smith]

Vree were on the Extraction SA in our game too, simply because they could. Often there was no reason not to be.