P&P overall
- Thread starter Burger
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No. 1 Bear
Mongoose
Ignores stealth what?
That seems so stupid, i can't actually see you and therefore don't know which way your facing, so will turn you around! That just seems wrong.
Anything that causes instant damage is a bit OTT anyway.
So 10 of those vs 5 shadow scouts hmmm yeh.
EDIT: For grammar by me.
That seems so stupid, i can't actually see you and therefore don't know which way your facing, so will turn you around! That just seems wrong.
Anything that causes instant damage is a bit OTT anyway.
So 10 of those vs 5 shadow scouts hmmm yeh.
EDIT: For grammar by me.
Foxmeister
Mongoose
IMHO, stealth in ACTA is probably pretty much "correct" as per the show.
They mention that during the Earth-Minbari war, the Earthforce ships couldn't get a lock on the Minbari ships, which definitely implies that they *knew* the Minbari were there, they just couldn't bring their weapons to bear because the targeting computer could not locate the target.
I see a gravitic shifter much like an e-mine - you are targeting an area of space rather than a specific ship, i.e. changing the local gravitational field in a specific area, so I can see why they would ignore stealth.
Of course, this fubars boresight as written, because if you knew precisely where your enemy was, you'd be able to boresight, regardless of lock!
Then again boresight always was sh1te!
Regards,
Dave
They mention that during the Earth-Minbari war, the Earthforce ships couldn't get a lock on the Minbari ships, which definitely implies that they *knew* the Minbari were there, they just couldn't bring their weapons to bear because the targeting computer could not locate the target.
I see a gravitic shifter much like an e-mine - you are targeting an area of space rather than a specific ship, i.e. changing the local gravitational field in a specific area, so I can see why they would ignore stealth.
Of course, this fubars boresight as written, because if you knew precisely where your enemy was, you'd be able to boresight, regardless of lock!
Then again boresight always was sh1te! Regards,
Dave
Is there anything in the rules which said a grav shifter ignored stealth before P&P came out? If not, the first ship to use a grav shifter against the stealth target of your choice has to beat its stealth to use one grav shifter, and then starts inflicting damage when it uses a second.
So then a second ship attacks the same target - why does it automatically ignore the target's stealth when, using any other weapon, it only gets a +1 bonus against the stealth?
Now let that second ship fire its other weapons - does it still automatically beat the target's stealth, get a +1 bonus because the first ship beat it, or get no bonus because nobody has yet thrown actual attack dice at it?
I don't have the finished P&P yet - does it specifically say shields don't work against grav shifter damage? Playtest version 1.2 specifically says adaptive armour and GEG do work, dodge and interceptors don't, and does not mention shields at all.
And if you think the Shadow Scout is in trouble, pity the poor White Star which gets jumped by a few of the new ships. Especially if, once one grav shifter has made the CQ check to turn the White Star, all the rest do automatic damage without needing to make CQ checks against the White Star's +1 CQ bonus...
I'd suggest making the Haltana a Raid level ship, same as the basic Halik and existing Haltona variant. Or remove one grav shifter from each of port and starboard arcs.
So then a second ship attacks the same target - why does it automatically ignore the target's stealth when, using any other weapon, it only gets a +1 bonus against the stealth?
Now let that second ship fire its other weapons - does it still automatically beat the target's stealth, get a +1 bonus because the first ship beat it, or get no bonus because nobody has yet thrown actual attack dice at it?
I don't have the finished P&P yet - does it specifically say shields don't work against grav shifter damage? Playtest version 1.2 specifically says adaptive armour and GEG do work, dodge and interceptors don't, and does not mention shields at all.
And if you think the Shadow Scout is in trouble, pity the poor White Star which gets jumped by a few of the new ships. Especially if, once one grav shifter has made the CQ check to turn the White Star, all the rest do automatic damage without needing to make CQ checks against the White Star's +1 CQ bonus...
I'd suggest making the Haltana a Raid level ship, same as the basic Halik and existing Haltona variant. Or remove one grav shifter from each of port and starboard arcs.
The wording in standard 2e doesn't mention ignoring stealth. However it has no attack dice, and simply states "nominate a target" and "make opposed CQ checks". So there is a good arguement that it does ignore stealth (and all other defences).AdrianH said:
Very interesting questions ... hope this was playtested, and can be answered consistently! Personally, I would think of it like an e-mine for stealth-busting purposes.
Foxmeister said:IMHO, stealth in ACTA is probably pretty much "correct" as per the show.
They mention that during the Earth-Minbari war, the Earthforce ships couldn't get a lock on the Minbari ships, which definitely implies that they *knew* the Minbari were there, they just couldn't bring their weapons to bear because the targeting computer could not locate the target.
I see a gravitic shifter much like an e-mine - you are targeting an area of space rather than a specific ship, i.e. changing the local gravitational field in a specific area, so I can see why they would ignore stealth.
Of course, this fubars boresight as written, because if you knew precisely where your enemy was, you'd be able to boresight, regardless of lock!
Regards,
Dave
Alternative mechanics and extra options such as manual targetting special actions have been suggested and poo-poohed in the past. What can you do?
Ultimately stealth is something completely out of your hands as a player - there's no realistic way to hold long range and fight effectively (for the sake of that +1 bonus). You can't always rely on there being dust clouds or terrain to hide behind/around. Once you get into medium range, it's just luck to see if anyone can't get a lock on you. Then pretty much everyone can - and if you haven't got lucky with the odd critical by then, you're probably dead.
The wording in standard 2e for stealth doesn't mention attack dice either:Burger said:
The grav shifter is certainly a weapon, it's listed under the weapons; it certainly targets an individual ship rather than an area around a point in space like an e-mine; so the only question is whether use of such a weapon against an enemy ship is still an attack even though no attack dice are used.
As for other defences against a single grav shifter turning the ship: the definition of interceptors specifically mentions attack dice; the definition of dodge doesn't, it says a successful dodge means "all effects of the attack are ignored". Adaptive armour, GEG and shields won't stop the ship being turned, they only reduce damage, so don't apply to the turning effect of a single grav shifter.
Iain McGhee
Mongoose
Burger said:
I saw that, but I'd only really be using this rule if I was fighting particularly large and/or well protected ships and wanted to throw as many AD at each one as possible. I'd think that putting such a large group of ships into a squadron would be pretty risky against races with e-mine type weapons and you'd be giving races with boresight weapons more chance to line up shots if so many of yours are moving together. Not to mention that if you blow up ships in the Hunting Pack you'd have a pretty good chance of catching a few more in the blast.
Clanger
Mongoose
My wording was that GEG and AA are part of the hull. Shields are around it. Nothing about not being lost as traits. As Grav Shifters effect the hull. In my humble opinion the shields would not effect the Grav Shifter.
To quote p.3 - p.4 of P&P
Gravitic Shifters
Brakiri captains have become adept at laying multiple gravitic shifter rays onto a single target, pulling it in one direction and then another, shaking its bulkheads apart in the process. Forevery Gravitic Shifter used against the same enemy shipin the same turn beyond the first, roll a dice. Automatically deduct this from the Damage and Crew of the enemy ship.
Adaptive Armour and Gravitic Energy Grids work as normal against the damage. The Dodge, Stealth and Interceptors traits do not.
Regardless of how many Gravitic Shifters are applied to a single ship, they may only ever turn it in place once in a turn
To quote p.3 - p.4 of P&P
Gravitic Shifters
Brakiri captains have become adept at laying multiple gravitic shifter rays onto a single target, pulling it in one direction and then another, shaking its bulkheads apart in the process. Forevery Gravitic Shifter used against the same enemy shipin the same turn beyond the first, roll a dice. Automatically deduct this from the Damage and Crew of the enemy ship.
Adaptive Armour and Gravitic Energy Grids work as normal against the damage. The Dodge, Stealth and Interceptors traits do not.
Regardless of how many Gravitic Shifters are applied to a single ship, they may only ever turn it in place once in a turn
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Burger said:
The shifter is a weapon, but using it is not an attack so steath (and dodge) do not apply, by the letter of the rules.
I think there was a playtest of the shifter Halik variant. The two shifter attack was toned down from a crit to d6 damage. However it wasn't tested against Minbari or Whitestars, IIRC.
I have to admit I only considered the stealth-beating aspect of it when Clanger had P&P in his hands and he was thinking of the possibilities of multiple shifter ships in a fleet.
Read the wording of the AA, shield, dodge and GEG traits - I'm pretty sure they refer to ignoring/discounting incoming damage or AD up to certain limits.
If the GS description doesn't say that it ignores those traits, then you have to assume that they still work as normal. Damage is still halved by AA, attacks can still be dodged etc. etc.
If the GS description doesn't say that it ignores those traits, then you have to assume that they still work as normal. Damage is still halved by AA, attacks can still be dodged etc. etc.
Clanger said:
ah the age old fluff vs in game
some ACTA shields are shields - Abbai and Brakiri shields.
if Adaptive Armour works so should Shadow Shields and if GEG works so should normal shields.
From a fluff point of view as the weapon actually targets a ship I would argue stealth should work adn so should dodge. But then I would argue the same against Vree extraction beams...........
I would have thought it should ignore interceptors (but then they do intercept comm disruptors.............
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